Ceramic upgrade for Lightweight Standard C

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
tma82
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:36 am

by tma82

Last week i ordered a pair of these wheels (haven't arrived yet)

Like many others, I was a bit disappointed to learn that the wheels only had steel bearings http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75250&start=45

So, I have been trying to find out which types of bearings I need to upgrade the wheels when I get them, but I just can figure it out. I have asked around and so far I've got three different answers :noidea:

I have asked two people from CarbonSports, and got the following answers:

you need for the front wheel,
the number 6092RS
and for the rear wheel the number 69022RS
these numbers stand for the respective size.


and

you can´t use in the Lightweight Frontwheel with the full carbon hub bearing sit ceramic bearings.
The hub have not enough small tolerances for ceramic bearings.
The ceramic bearings are damaged in a few kilomiters.

In The rearwheel you need:

Left side: 1x 6802 RS
Right side: 1x 6902 RS
Freewheelbody: 2x 6702 RS


Also, I read what "legs 11" wrote in this thread: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=605472#p605472 but that only made me even more confused :D

Has anyone tried putting ceramic bearings in the front wheel? And what was the result?

Doesn't Obermayer have ceramic bearings in the front wheel hub? And if it is the same hub, why do they advice against the use of ceramic bearings in the standard wheels? I do intend to use mine for race-day only.

sedluk
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:10 am

by sedluk

I own several Carbonsport wheelsets, both ceramic and steel bearings. I can tell you the bearings make virtually no difference at all, but you can still go ahead and get some.

There is a weight difference between the Standard tubular wheelset and the Obermayer wheelset. Something along the lines of 1,100 grams and 975 grams. But it is not the bearings that make the difference, it is the hub and rim that make the difference, or at least virtually all the difference.

But let us know if you change to ceramic and update us after a few thousand miles. Be careful of any placebo effect.

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dadoflam08
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by dadoflam08

I must admit I accept Carbonsports rationale for not using ceramics and why they elected to use custom steel bearings - they beleive that ceramics do not have durability for everyday use and have sourced their own steel bearings for the hubs they use to achieve best performance and longevity.
'83 De Rosa Professional |'11 Baum Corretto |'08 BMC Pro Machine >6 |'86 Pinarello Team |'72 Cinelli SC |'58 Bianchi |'71 Cinelli SC |'78 Masi GC |'83 La Redoute Motobecane |'94 Banesto Pegoretti |'88 Bianchi X4 |'48 Super Elliott |'99 Look Kg281

Phill P
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by Phill P

They might be confusing ceramic and hybrid ceramic. Full ceramic does need a better tolerance on the bearing fit so as to not stress the races which can cause cracking.

fdegrove
Tubbie Guru
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Location: Belgium

by fdegrove

Hi,

My thoughts exactly.

Is LW using a carbon shell for their hub or is it a metal one BTW?
If the latter then popping in hybrids may be relatively straightforward but keep in mind that performancewise the benefit is minor.
IMHO the benefit starts when you can run the bearings on oil and I'd also like to see manufacturers pay attention to drag arising from the freewheel.
As anyone who's done some tests can testify, the bearings in the freewheel can be a major source of drag.

All in all the debate pro or against ceramic bearings is essentially a non issue, ceramics are intrinsically the better bearings.
Unfortunately they're extremely clumsily implemented when it comes to bicycles.

Ciao, ;)
Last edited by fdegrove on Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.

sedluk
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:10 am

by sedluk

The inside of the hub is metal, the outside is carbon fiber.

sharkman
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:32 pm
Location: the Netherlands

by sharkman

Basically what Carbon sports is using is a 190 rear hub (front is their own hub) with the DT bearings (the ones with the white seals) replaced by the same size in fully steel versions (as in dt 240s these also habe blue seals).
Easiest part would be to order a DT190 overhaul kit with new bearings (and a 190 body) but costs will be astronomic.
Maybe DT can shine some light on which bearings are used.
P.s. if you also purchased the service up ensurance I would be carefull since it will probably void warranty.

fdegrove
Tubbie Guru
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Location: Belgium

by fdegrove

Hi,

Are DT 190 hubs different in any other way but the ceramic bearings then?

Either way, the difference in asking price is enormous for an already overly expensive hub set...

Ciao, ;)
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.

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Mario Jr.
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by Mario Jr.

Yes, the freehub body has been lightened as well as the ratchet rings are hollow on the 190 hub. Still, the price difference is very high.

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Giant DK
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by Giant DK

You can buy an aftermarket DT hollow 36 rachet for no money.

I can only recommend Ceramic Speed bearings in those wheels. Especially the rear. A Ceramic Speed upgraded 240 hub has a lot less drag the the standard Ceramic 190 hub.

As for the front hub I found the standard bearings running very smooth but a ceramic upgrade are also prosible.
Technical editor at Cykelmagasinet Denmark

My Simplon Pavo II

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legs 11
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by legs 11

If the front bearings are running fine just leave them alone. :)
It's possible to change them, but it's a tricky job TBH and not worth the hassle unless the standard bearings are shot.
I would agree that a plain steel high quality bearing offers better long term performance in a carbon hub like that as the tolerances are higher than a machined alloy hub body.
Pedalling Law Student.

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Giant DK
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by Giant DK

I don't aggree on the front bearings. I haven't changed them myself but I have seen the operation be done. The dustcaps (golden ones on older models) pulls right of. And with a rubber hammer it is easy to "knock" the bearings out.

Actually if your standard bearings are not running smooth from the beginning it is proberbly due to the axle. My experience is that if the diameter of the is slightly off the axle presses too much on the inner races creating to much drag. With some caution and some steel wool it is posible make the axle fit perfectly - not much rubbing needed!
Technical editor at Cykelmagasinet Denmark

My Simplon Pavo II

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currieinahurry
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by currieinahurry

Yo legs 11 good to see you back on here! been missing some wisdom recently!
tikka
:)

Lafolie
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Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:12 pm

by Lafolie

I had a good chat with the guys at Carbon Sports about this very subject some months ago. They talked me through the technical angle and why they haven't fitted ceramic bearings to the Standard 111. To be honest, I think you will notice little if any difference. I'm very happy with my Standard 111 Lightweights and they are indeed a very very fast wheels. There have been a few posts on this site regarding this issue, have a quick look. Even David Bergmann has spoken about this. Since buying my Lightweights I have got to know David really well. He is a top guy!

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legs 11
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by legs 11

Cheers Tikka? :thumbup:
Yeah, it's a do-able job, but it's tricky, and it's not something that can be taken lightly as it's a real pain to fit and axle shim the bearings correctly?
Firstly, the gold caps don't always just 'pop off'......sometimes they can be a major PITA to get off without damaging the part?
You can't lever against any of the hub either, and that adds to the difficulty. And just forcing things isn't a good way to work with a hub this fragile? :wink:
You'll need to make a few tools up to do the job without damaging the hub, and you may end up doing it a couple of times if you want it to be absolutely perfect, and sometimes that's beyond the limit of the home wrench? (I don't mean that to detract from my respect for home wrenching BTW)
It's always easy to watch someone else doing a job and comment how easy it looked. :)
If it ain't broken, just leave it alone.
If it's shot anyway you have much less to lose.
And.......the ceramic hybrid thing is sketchy at best?.........You're better off with a food graded Stainless Steel bearing IMO?
Cheers anyway, it's good to be back here? :beerchug:
Pedalling Law Student.

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