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Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:49 am
by Tinea Pedis
You're aware how old that unit you are referring to is? Not sure what point you're trying to make? That Powertap are not worth it because a 5 year old unit could not be fixed by you and needed to go back to Saris?


My issues with PT were that, in the G3 versions, you would blow through bearings in a rather short time. Annoying. But easily fixed. Battery life in unit was ok, not huge. But again, easily and cheaply fixed (unlike SRM). I like racing with power, however half my clubs races I just do with training wheels in so PT stayed on. Plus it could go across multiple bikes.

The is lighter, better on battery and water resistance (and issue for some hubs) and still (of course) can be moved across multiple bikes. I think PT still have a very real place within the power game.


As for Quarq, I do not know of anyone in 'the real world' who has not killed at least one unit. All my team mates have. I've done two. I'm now on SRM and this is not in reference to Quarq's latest offerings - but failure rate was huge. In fact, a bigger turn off than PT was.


SRM, for Aussies, is expensive to get a battery changed. Has to be shipped back to SRM New Zealand - you're looking at the better part of $400 (minimum). That said, they are the most accurate and otherwise bomb proof. One SRAM SRM spider also decided to stop working on me (I am genuinely 'the man' when it comes to ultimate product testing), SRM replaced it without a hassle.

There is a reason they are still viewed at being the gold standard.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:49 am
by Weenie

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:12 am
by stella-azzurra
Let me answer your questions before you get all up in my space.
That power tap sat around for years before I got my hands on it.
It failed years ago. My friend got it used for someone else.
It was already not working. He had hoped it was the batter y or something simple.
The usage on that thing was low.

I have read may stories online how many times power tap fails right around the warranty expiration period. Go figure.

Maybe the newer units are better maybe not.

I for one would steer clear of power tap.

Is that OK with you?

What is my point? My point is that when someone spends a nice chunk of change on a unit like power tap a company like Saris has the gaul to charge another absorbent fee to "fix" it for you.

Those units should be a lot better constructed to weather the elements on the road.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:34 am
by Tinea Pedis
Firstly, deep breaths. It's not a personal attack. Not everyone on WW is out to "fight you in the car park" (yes, I remember those antics)


There are a lot of assumptions going on here, not least of which being the fact that "usage was low" in spite of it being a third-hand unit from "someone else". How much cycling stuff for sale is ever advertised as "high usage"? Everything has "low miles". You've been around the traps long enough to catch my drift.

Secondly, you're basing this off one account. While here (Australia) have also had issues with older hubs (which is well documented the build quality could certainly have been better) they still had Saris help them out. Yes, they had to pay for it. Not highway robbery figures, but still figure that hurt. In exchange (and probably a passive/aggressive admission older models were not the best) their PT's came back gutted and totally replaced with SL+ internals.

These were guys with just Pro (or whatever the bottom level was) or SL hubs, some wired some ANT+. All got their hubs upgraded.

The G4 are another big step up from the G3 - which again, had to happen for them to stay competitive.


Like all product issues on the internet, we all hear about the exceptions. Not the multitude of happy consumers. Not saying your opinion is wrong, or 'all up in your space'. Rather that there are other factors worth taking in to account.



And I say all this as someone quite settled on crank based power for the foreseeable future (read: no personal buy-in to need to defend PT).

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:48 am
by angrylegs
Tinea Pedis wrote:As for Quarq, I do not know of anyone in 'the real world' who has not killed at least one unit.


I haven't! Although, you don't know me in 'the real world' so I guess pointing that out is moot. :D I've had mine for 2 years. Raced and trained through pretty much everything and it's been flawless. Doesn't mean some haven't had issues - I just haven't experienced any.

Next I'll be getting Rotor's own PM for another bike build. Whenever that happens. Hopefully in the fall.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:23 am
by eric
My Quark Cinco from a couple years ago has been perfectly reliable.... it's needed one battery.
I liked it so much I bought a new Quarq Elsa when I build a new bike this year.

My 2007 wireless PT has been pretty reliable too, other than batteries (which are easy to swap) and bearings (which I can do myself). I did not think the bearing failure rate was excessive as I rode this wheel all the time until I got the Quark then put it on my rain bike. The hub has been built up into six different wheels. Saris rebuilt it once for me gratis and even gave me a new freehub body.
The axle bent a few months back and Saris did not have any (this is the old 12mm axle). Rather than pay the $350 for an upgrade I found an axle at wheelbuilder.com. They also have steel axles.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:44 am
by stella-azzurra
Tinea Pedis wrote:Firstly, deep breaths. It's not a personal attack. Not everyone on WW is out to "fight you in the car park" (yes, I remember those antics)


I am glad you do and you should.

Tinea Pedis wrote:There are a lot of assumptions going on here, not least of which being the fact that "usage was low" in spite of it being a third-hand unit from "someone else". How much cycling stuff for sale is ever advertised as "high usage"? Everything has "low miles". You've been around the traps long enough to catch my drift.


I do not know what the exact usage was but the failure happened years ago. If it had happened now it would be a different story.

Tinea Pedis wrote:Secondly, you're basing this off one account. While here (Australia) have also had issues with older hubs (which is well documented the build quality could certainly have been better) they still had Saris help them out. Yes, they had to pay for it. Not highway robbery figures, but still figure that hurt. In exchange (and probably a passive/aggressive admission older models were not the best) their PT's came back gutted and totally replaced with SL+ internals.


I'm not basing this on one account. I am not like that but thank you for supporting my initial point.

Tinea Pedis wrote:These were guys with just Pro (or whatever the bottom level was) or SL hubs, some wired some ANT+. All got their hubs upgraded.

The G4 are another big step up from the G3 - which again, had to happen for them to stay competitive.


Sure at $350 a pop I'll give you an upgrade.

Tinea Pedis wrote:Like all product issues on the internet, we all hear about the exceptions. Not the multitude of happy consumers. Not saying your opinion is wrong, or 'all up in your space'. Rather that there are other factors worth taking in to account.


I am sure there are happy customers too. My point here is that Saris if they had built a reliable product would, could and should support their customers better. Charging that fee to repair some BS that the customer has no control over is ludicrous.

Tinea Pedis wrote:And I say all this as someone quite settled on crank based power for the foreseeable future (read: no personal buy-in to need to defend PT).


I fully endorse SRM. always have and I don't even own one.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:02 am
by Mario Jr.
1415chris wrote:I'm on very similar stage of the PM experience, looking for to acquire one.
I decided to go for crank based PM, even didn't consider hub based option for practicality, riding 2 wheelsets plus turbo trainer.

I definitely would like to stay with Rotor 3D+ and Qrings, which as far as I'm concerned takes the Quark option out of the equation, no option for 3D+.
SRM seems to be no go for Qrings, please correct me if I'm wrong.
So the choice comes to the Power2Max and Rotor's PM, which seems to be quite unknown territory. On top of this availability the end of Aug.
Rotor is pretty light, only about 90g more, including batteries, comparing to the 110 3D+ 172.5 500g with spider.
Price wise P2M is a winner here.
The prices quoted on their web include crank arms. Can you buy the unit only, without the arms? That would make the purchase even more attractive.
How does this PM perform with Qrings?
Is anybody here who had an experience with both P2M and Rotor PM... and Qrings?


Former user of P2M, now using Rotor Power. Actually, I have been happy with both but the differences is that P2M obviously is somewhat heavier, and that the Rotor Power measures on both sides, (which means that you can not buy it without arms, as the measuring takes place there). Also the P2M I had, was overshooting my power by 7-8%, but that was stable, so as long as I didn't compared to other people, it was ok. Oh, and the Rotor also seem tolerate temperature falls and rises a lot better. But the way the Rotor Power is build, you can shift between different chainring shapes etc. without any calibration problems or failed readings.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:47 am
by Tinea Pedis
stella-azzurra wrote:I'm not basing this on one account. I am not like that but thank you for supporting my initial point.

One is all you listed. I ran with that. Sorry, couldn't read any more in to that.

You'll find that I did actually state there were issues

viewtopic.php?p=993877#p993877

So you're welcome.


And a $350 gut, re-build and upgrade of a unit that is out of warranty is not bad consumer support I feel. As stated, they recognise there were issues, as such upgraded hubs.

You're welcome to (and I expect you will) disagree. No worries.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:35 am
by Juanmoretime
Third season on my Quarq and zero issues. That is racing and training on my tt bike. Still the original battery too. I'm not saying to get a Quarq but I would not hesitate to buy one again.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:22 pm
by Stoo
Well that escalted quickly....

Anyhow, As I am not a pro, or don't intend on competing at any high level, I have gone for the Power2Max

Rotor 3D with 130BCD 53/39 O-Rings.
Went 3D over 3D+ so that I can swap between bikes when/if I need to...

Meter, crank, rings, bolts, tool.... £950ish delivered.

Thanks guys.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:59 pm
by stella-azzurra
Tinea Pedis wrote:
You'll find that I did actually state there were issues.


And I thank you for that.

Tinea Pedis wrote:And a $350 gut, re-build and upgrade of a unit that is out of warranty is not bad consumer support I feel. As stated, they recognise there were issues, as such upgraded hubs.

You're welcome to (and I expect you will) disagree. No worries.


Not a problem it's not my 350$

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:14 pm
by 1415chris
Stoo wrote:Went 3D over 3D+ so that I can swap between bikes when/if I need to...

Can't you do that with 3D+...?
How long did you wait for delivery, from the point of placing order?

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:28 pm
by Stoo
I've literally, just ordered it today.

3D+ Is BB30.
3D is BB86 compatible @ 24mm

I have 2 bikes that are 24mm.

So if I want to, I can transfer from one to another with no issues.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:10 pm
by angrylegs
Stoo wrote:I've literally, just ordered it today.


Congrats! Glad to see that you found the info you needed to make your choice. I think it's a good one. Enjoy!

Mario Jr. wrote:Former user of P2M, now using Rotor Power. Actually, I have been happy with both but the differences is that P2M obviously is somewhat heavier, and that the Rotor Power measures on both sides, (which means that you can not buy it without arms, as the measuring takes place there). Also the P2M I had, was overshooting my power by 7-8%, but that was stable, so as long as I didn't compared to other people, it was ok. Oh, and the Rotor also seem tolerate temperature falls and rises a lot better. But the way the Rotor Power is build, you can shift between different chainring shapes etc. without any calibration problems or failed readings.


Thanks for this. I had already decided to go with Rotor's PM for my next build, but the little bit of actual user experience offered here helps support that choice.

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:10 pm
by Weenie

Re: power meters selection pros/cons

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:12 pm
by WMW
Tinea Pedis wrote:My issues with PT were that, in the G3 versions, you would blow through bearings in a rather short time. Annoying. But easily fixed. Battery life in unit was ok, not huge. But again, easily and cheaply fixed (unlike SRM).


Curious what your fixes were for bearing and battery life issues?