New powermeter rumours

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
maquisard
Posts: 1817
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

c60rider wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:06 pm
I doubt they'll be gone in a couple of years but they'll not gain any new customers as they're way out of price for most. Power meter price has and will continue to drop in price so any new riders to power dipping their toe will probably go stages, pioneer, 4i etc and probably find they work perfectly adequately. And marketing sells products. 20 years ago the top teams all tended to ride Colnago. They drifted out of sponsorship and most bikers now seem to lust after he latest trek, specialized, bmc, canyon etc why? Because the pros ride them. Same with power meters hardly anyone is using srm now so if a product is good enough for them that's what the masses will buy.
I have to disagree, the fact that they are not producing new products is a bad sign. As as an engineering business when cash flow becomes a problem the first thing you do is cut R&D spend to reduce your operating costs and extract the most revenue out of your business by continuing to see your existing product line.

SRM aren't used by pros as much now as other manufacturers have caught up and passed SRM. The same is true of Colnago and other frame manufacturers. You are living in fantasy land if you think Colnago are even remotely close to cutting edge of bicycle frame design. In the case of SRM, their implementation, particularly the temperature compensation, is markedly inferior to what is implemented in modern powermeters like the Power2Max, Quarq etc.

Today with SRM you are not riding a market leading powermeter, but you are paying a market leading price for it.

by Weenie


Kazyole
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:45 am
Location: NYC

by Kazyole

c60rider wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:06 pm
maquisard wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:26 pm
ghisallo2003 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:51 pm
Your evidence? Like Campagnolo being decimated by the OEM market? They won't be the biggest supplier, but that is not their objective. Having just bought another SRM, I did take a bet.
The powermeter market is growing, SRM's market share is diminishing. They aren't investing in new products and instead simply relying on the revenue from their current product line. Any new products like the latest iteration of the PowerControl is over priced, under specced and late to market.

This only ever ends one way, they will be gone in a couple of years.
I doubt they'll be gone in a couple of years but they'll not gain any new customers as they're way out of price for most. Power meter price has and will continue to drop in price so any new riders to power dipping their toe will probably go stages, pioneer, 4i etc and probably find they work perfectly adequately. And marketing sells products. 20 years ago the top teams all tended to ride Colnago. They drifted out of sponsorship and most bikers now seem to lust after he latest trek, specialized, bmc, canyon etc why? Because the pros ride them. Same with power meters hardly anyone is using srm now so if a product is good enough for them that's what the masses will buy.
I assume they're trying to take back some of the higher end market? I don't think they'll be gone soon, but it's certainly a much more cluttered landscape than it was only a few years ago.

I'd be curious to see if SRM do anything to introduce a low cost product to rival stages, 4i, etc, but at least right now in the short term with the Origin they seem to be going in the other direction. Low weight, beautiful PM and the trilobe concept seems like a pretty novel idea. Rechargeable battery seems like a great idea as well. At minimum should make resale easier, and probably eliminates a lot of complexity in production.

Incidentally I just ordered a SRM Origin for my R5. Competitivecyclist's current 20% off a full priced item code doesn't exclude it, so figured I'd give it a shot at a discount. Honestly I thought there would be more hype surrounding the origin on here, given its claimed weight of sub 600g. It's expensive, yeah. But so are THM brakes. I'll be tossing Carbon-Ti rings on it to get that weight down a little further. Think it's going to be the cherry on top of this build when it's done.

Will weigh it and post a picture once it gets here.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1043
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Honestly the problem for SRM and other companies charging for premium features like Pioneer and it's torque vector measurements is it's all basically useless. There is no evidence that "circular pedaling" is more biomechanically efficient. Even with my Garmin Vectors, I don't gain any power by trying to mess with my power phases, platform center offset, etc. What matters is accurate "full" power measurement, and that can be obtained for $700 or so these days.

c60rider
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

maquisard wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:19 pm
c60rider wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:06 pm
I doubt they'll be gone in a couple of years but they'll not gain any new customers as they're way out of price for most. Power meter price has and will continue to drop in price so any new riders to power dipping their toe will probably go stages, pioneer, 4i etc and probably find they work perfectly adequately. And marketing sells products. 20 years ago the top teams all tended to ride Colnago. They drifted out of sponsorship and most bikers now seem to lust after he latest trek, specialized, bmc, canyon etc why? Because the pros ride them. Same with power meters hardly anyone is using srm now so if a product is good enough for them that's what the masses will buy.
I have to disagree, the fact that they are not producing new products is a bad sign. As as an engineering business when cash flow becomes a problem the first thing you do is cut R&D spend to reduce your operating costs and extract the most revenue out of your business by continuing to see your existing product line.

SRM aren't used by pros as much now as other manufacturers have caught up and passed SRM. The same is true of Colnago and other frame manufacturers. You are living in fantasy land if you think Colnago are even remotely close to cutting edge of bicycle frame design. In the case of SRM, their implementation, particularly the temperature compensation, is markedly inferior to what is implemented in modern powermeters like the Power2Max, Quarq etc.

Today with SRM you are not riding a market leading powermeter, but you are paying a market leading price for it.
Speak to Calnago about the latest C64 that he's written an excellent thread on. Colnago's bottom bracket implementation on that and the previous C60 is way ahead of any other manufacturer. But I think you've misread my post generally in that marketing sells products to the masses. In SRM's case it tries to use gold standard as the ultimate in power measurement yet your power is all relative to the power meter you have fitted. Consistent measurement is the critical factor. There will always be a small section of any market happy to pay a premium for a product they perceive to be better than something else whether that be function or aesthetics. In SRM's case I really don't know what you're paying for other than the name as they're trying to play catch up with the lack of features compared to other power meters. The origin is a collaboration with Look so I don't know whether that's a good or bad sign for SRM moving forward but they seem very slow to change and develop new products and that's normally a bad sign in a very fast developing market like power meters.

Kazyole
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:45 am
Location: NYC

by Kazyole

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:43 pm
Honestly the problem for SRM and other companies charging for premium features like Pioneer and it's torque vector measurements is it's all basically useless. There is no evidence that "circular pedaling" is more biomechanically efficient. Even with my Garmin Vectors, I don't gain any power by trying to mess with my power phases, platform center offset, etc. What matters is accurate "full" power measurement, and that can be obtained for $700 or so these days.
Yep. Dura Ace brakes will stop you fine at $300/pair but some of us will still shell out $1200 for THM Fibulas. For me the origin is in the same category. I didn't buy it because I thought it's a better powermeter than a 9100-P (the other I considered). I don't care about L/R balance or power phase analysis. I look at total power when I ride and that's it really. As long as it's consistent in its measurements that's all I need. And any powermeter I buy will give me that. I bought the SRM largely because it's one of the lightest options out there, and IMO also one of the most beautiful. Rechargeable battery is nice as well. And I'm looking forward to taking advantage of the trilobes to try 172.5 for a couple of rides to see how it feels.

Yeah, maybe the $600 difference in price between it and the 9100-P is a large premium to pay for those things, but I'm not coming to this forum because I'm a rational person when it comes to my bike.

nemeseri
Posts: 655
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:40 pm

by nemeseri

So specialized published the s-works PM on their website. No price currently. What was quite surprising for me is that they are going to release shimano 105 and ultegra left only PMs:

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-wor ... 632-134035
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/power ... 709-157391

Is there any way to use an S-Works crankset on a PF30A bike? Asking for a friend..

TurboKoo
Posts: 424
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:55 pm

by TurboKoo

Pricing and availability is as follows:

S-Works Power Crank Dual - on bikes now, this fall for aftermarket - $1,150 / £995
S-Works Power Crank Single (left side) - this fall - $750 / £650
S-Works Dura-Ace 9100 Dual – April/May in limited quantities - $1,500 / £1,200
Power Crank Ultegra Upgrade (left crank) - April/May - $500/ £400
Power Crank 105 Upgrade (left crank) - April/May - $450 / £N/A
Scott Foil
Shimano 9150
Shimano FCR-9100-P
Shimano C60 tubulars

jever98
Posts: 811
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:02 pm

by jever98

nemeseri wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:31 am

Is there any way to use an S-Works crankset on a PF30A bike? Asking for a friend..
Unfortunately not. Even PF30 is a little tricky.
----
No longer in the industry

AndreLM
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:53 pm

by AndreLM

jever98 wrote: Unfortunately not. Even PF30 is a little tricky.
Can you explain better? I thought OSBB and PF30 dimensions from a crankset spindle interface dimensions were identical, with the difference being only on the interface with the frame.

This one is looking really cool, and even the price is OK. With some light chainrings, it should be lighter than SRM Origin, at a fraction of the cost.

I will probably sell my P2M TypeS (Rotor 3D+) and replace it with this one.

jever98
Posts: 811
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:02 pm

by jever98

The axle on the S-Works cranks is super short. I installed it on my PF30 frame and had to take out their nut that is used to control for lateral play and resort to micro-shims + wave washer. More fiddly to install, but just about works. PF30A is wider than PF30 (https://www.kogel.cc/blogs/kbba/cannond ... 0a-explain), so the axle would be too short.

Re powere meter - I would never go for a crank arm based system. IMHO opinion it's an inferior strategy to measuring power to the spider-based approach used by power2max, Quarq, and SRAM: with the spider based system you can auto-zero frequently, minimising the chance of mis-measurement. With crank-arm based PMs you have to unclip to do it. You also have a higher chance of damaging the crank arm than the spider in a crash. Lastly, the spider deformation directly measures torque. To get torque from crank arm deformation takes more steps. Sure it works, but the reliability and longevity of a p2m type-s will be touh to match.

Just my 2c, I'm sure many will disagree.
----
No longer in the industry

guyc
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:40 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Contact:

by guyc

In depth review of the new Specialized meter:

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/03/spe ... eview.html

AndreLM
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:53 pm

by AndreLM

jever98 wrote:The axle on the S-Works cranks is super short...
Ah ok... thanks. I had a similar issue when I installed my 3D+ with CK bb on a PF30 frame... of course the 3D+ spindle is quite wide, but I could not make it fit with the provided spacers. Changing to SRAM bb fixed it (it was easier than finding the right spacers)
jever98 wrote: Re powere meter - I would never go for a crank arm based system (...) Just my 2c, I'm sure many will disagree.
I agree that a spider based PM is more robust... just exercising my ww’ism here.

Kaboom
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:53 pm

by Kaboom

One must truly be looking for an excuse to blow money to spend 3k on an SRM power meter considering the options on the market today...

Geoff
Posts: 5097
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Location: Canada

by Geoff

Well, people can obviously say what they want about SRM, but it simply works. It offers dependable repeatability, which is all I want.

maquisard
Posts: 1817
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

What fantasy land do you live in where you think other brands don't work!?

You can achieve the same precision and accuracy in something much much cheaper

by Weenie


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