Tour’s ridiculous tyre test and their questionable findings.

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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theremery
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by theremery

It's tricky tho, DJ, as where I chose to use the 4000s tyres (only in 1 criterium last year) for racing purposes, the whole aim was to shoot those corners fast as possible. Crr was a consideration as was weight (because some corners were pretty slow and the wind-up of peripheral rotating mass was on my mind) but I still think I made the right tyre choice in that instance. Second choice was the open corsa CX Vittorias. I felt fast and in control in the corners on the 4000s' and could count on making a place or two (if I wished) on each corner. I knew that if I drifted out the back on even 1 corner I'd be gone....so the 4000s became a contender. Sucking at that criterium was "motor-related failure" I think ;) I'd never use 4000s in my favourite 70km "out and back" race (too slow and no advantage other than 1 second at the turn-around)....I'll use my vittorias there again this season. I'm going to get a pair of veloflex records to compare (in races) as a reasonably gear-savvy friend rates them over the local roads.
I'm not sure I'd personally rush out to buy 4000s for tyres as racers....my ones came on the bike when I got it and since I rarely use them....they'll be available for duty for years to come where I think they'll help.
I train on IRC paperlites that I got for about $8 each US. Terrible grip and wear quite quick but moderate for Crr and lightish at 155-160g. Beacause my local town is littered with glass after each weekend....it was a simple economic choice to tollerate the IRC's 1990 build criteria in favour of low stress when they punctured (I destroyed 2 top end racer tyres in 1 week to prompt this unusual move).
There are many considerations when chosing which tyres you may elect to go with.
As for trusting Al Morrison's data......I'm not overly convinced by ANY method that uses a roller, but his seemed no more crappy than most of the others I've read. Importantly, his results seem to mirror what my senses tell me....so the natural tendency is to trust HIS data more, I guess (human nature). I honestly laugh at the tests that say 4000s are the fastest, either by omission or "careful selection" of test criteria because this simply feels ludicrous when I put some on my bike. They go slower (I THINK). I really do want a test that looks at the data a LOT differently. I'd personally like to see some sort of 3-D graph that puts Crr, pressure and Grip on an X,Y,Z 3-D axis with a 4th indicator built in (perhaps by shade or colour) for "imparted vibration" , or similar, as I get a grumpy lower back if there is too much vibration.....and those rough spots can't be good for maintaining good crr figures. This is only how I would choose the graph set-up.....each person would have their own criteria ranking. Temp and road surface add further variation to this..........and this is why it's so tricky!!!!
The problem is that I'm never going to have the time or resources to do the research and/or develop the graphics package.
Updated: Racing again! Thought this was unlikely! Eventually, I may even have a decent race!
Edit: 2015: darn near won the best South Island series (got second in age
-group)..woo hoo Racy Theremery is back!!

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djconnel
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by djconnel

Really good point about the grip in corners. In a strung out crit pack, or almost any race at crunch time, the effect of pack position blows away that of a few watts! It's easy to neglect factors which are not as clearly quantifiable as Crr, mass, or Cda.

I'm also suspicious of roller data, but as you note, the results follow reasonable trends.

by Weenie


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robnfl
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by robnfl

2 wheels wrote:Tour carried out yet a new clincher test in 8/2008:
Download this article here (in German): http://www.conti-online.com/generator/w ... 808_de.pdf


What's interesting to me about this article, other than the fact that the 4000s requires 14% less energy than the Pro3 at their test speed, is that the thinner butyl tubes are almost as efficient as the 88 gram latex tube they tested.

That is unless my feeble attempt at German to English translation is off.

Rob
"Speed kills...oh well, we've all gotta go sometime!"

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theremery
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by theremery

re the tubes....yes, this is well established in many tests. The fastest clincher combo is using michelin latex...but most lightish latex tubes are ok. To be fair tho....comparing a 50g butyl with an 88g latex is not overly cool tho as you can get quite light latex tubes so extrapolate the butyl tests to about 88g and you get something in the 32-33 Watt range then compare that with latex......about 4 Watts per wheel. That is really quite a lot, and the reason why I'm still hunting for latex tubes (not currently available in NEWZEALAND....anyone know a good source????...please let me know, and I'm happy to import). Very light Butyl tubes go OK (only) and re the butyl ones....for crr, the lighter, the better. I use maxxis flyweights usually and have had a really good run from them but I know some people who just can't install them at all well (despite pretty good all-round mechanical skill, they just can't get these to work well for them) and use other brands like Continental light-weight varieties. The flyweights are thin enough to bleed-through some air over a couple of days which is a pain if you are a "maintainance-free" type rider. I don't care about the slow losses because I check my tyre pressures before most rides especially in winter when I'll generally drop pressures by 5 PSI for rainy days.
Speaking of which.....it's 23 degrees C and clear blue skies........
CYA LATER!
:D
P.s. I think there is an English version of this Test somewhere.
Updated: Racing again! Thought this was unlikely! Eventually, I may even have a decent race!
Edit: 2015: darn near won the best South Island series (got second in age
-group)..woo hoo Racy Theremery is back!!

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robnfl
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by robnfl

theremery wrote:....comparing a 50g butyl with an 88g latex is not overly cool tho as you can get quite light latex tubes



Hmmm...I've never used Latex tubes, but it seems that for the most part all I can find here in the US is Mich latex tubes, which are supposed to weigh around 75 grams. Right now I'm using the forte (performance) lunarlight butyls which on my scale weigh around 55 grams. So, according to Tour's test I would only be "saving" about 1.5 watts by switching from the 55 gram forte butyl tubes to the mich latex tubes.
I've been looking for the Vred latex tubes, but all I can find in the states is the 60mm stem version for $15 each...but, I don't know if they're in stock.

Rob
"Speed kills...oh well, we've all gotta go sometime!"

fdegrove
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by fdegrove

Hi,

Go for the Vreds if you can find them.

They're made of natural* latex and the short stem version is of little use with modern rims anyway.

*Read unpigmented.

Also, don't be afraid to use a 18-20mm Michelin latex even if you use a 23mm tyre.
Latex is very flexy and for as long as you don't run insane pressures in your tyres you'll be fine.

So, what's left as far as latex inner tubes are concerned?

In order of availabilty from where I'm sitting:

1/ Michelin
2/ Vittoria Gold
3/ Vredestein
4/ Conti
5/ Schwalbe
6/ Air-B (butylized latex)
7/ Pariba (extremely rare nowadays and too heavy)

Can't help but wonder who on earth is supplying the inner tubes for all those fine tubular tyres? Medical industry?

Ciao, ;)
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.

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theremery
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by theremery

yep it's those mIch latex's that I'm keen on getting hold of.......I still want some and the 20mm version will do me fine. Any suggestions for stockists that won't charge rediculous prices to get a few sets here??
My mistake tho as I thought they were 60g each but were some brands ARE around 55g (vred race latex 40mm) and others round 60g (vred race latex 60mm valve)....there are others...see listings. The listings have the mich's at 68g incl cap (av of 4).
Updated: Racing again! Thought this was unlikely! Eventually, I may even have a decent race!
Edit: 2015: darn near won the best South Island series (got second in age
-group)..woo hoo Racy Theremery is back!!

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robnfl
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by robnfl

tr and fd - you guys have a good point. Looks like the vred latex with 60mm stem is 59g. That's pretty darn close to the forte lunarlights, although a bit more expensive. BB has them for $15.95, so I'll be ordering some on Monday. Thanks for the advice guys!

Rob
"Speed kills...oh well, we've all gotta go sometime!"

LVGH
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by LVGH

theremery wrote:yep it's those mIch latex's that I'm keen on getting hold of.......I still want some and the 20mm version will do me fine. Any suggestions for stockists that won't charge rediculous prices to get a few sets here??
My mistake tho as I thought they were 60g each but were some brands ARE around 55g (vred race latex 40mm) and others round 60g (vred race latex 60mm valve)....there are others...see listings. The listings have the mich's at 68g incl cap (av of 4).
You may want to try Probikekit.

fdegrove
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by fdegrove

theremery wrote:yep it's those mIch latex's that I'm keen on getting hold of.......I still want some and the 20mm version will do me fine. Any suggestions for stockists that won't charge rediculous prices to get a few sets here??
My mistake tho as I thought they were 60g each but were some brands ARE around 55g (vred race latex 40mm) and others round 60g (vred race latex 60mm valve)....there are others...see listings. The listings have the mich's at 68g incl cap (av of 4).


Hi,

Michelin offer two types to cover tyre width of 18-20mm and 20-23mm.
The 18-20mm is the lightest and is what I used to use even with a 23mm.

Let me know what exactly you're looking for and I'll point you to some vendors if you like.

Ciao, ;)
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.

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Amadeus
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by Amadeus

I am with Frank (fdegrove) again…
TIP! Challenge latex innertubes are real nice also coloured and 64-68grams very nice performance

@ theremery
I agree with you about the All Morrisson data.

Personally I would say Continental 4000s is NOT suitable for racing. Michelin Pro2race and Pro3race the same…. Just use these for training.

The only real clincher suitable to race in IMHO is Schwalbe Ultremo. Somehow Schwalbe was able to produce a real supple clincher on 127tpi the tyre even stays round after more then 2000km (that is due to the supple casing!). Continental at 110tpi and Michelin pro3race 127tpi develop a flat centre of the tread (for heavy riders even within 1000km this is mostly due to a less supple casing material). Supple tyres provide a better grip while cornering. The tread compound is of less importance.

Grip in corners is always better with a 300tpi open tubular like Veloflex, Chasllenge, Vittoria, DEDA tre, etc…..


@Robnfl

Don’t forget it is always about the performance of innertube in combination with tyre. So for better grip and performance ass well for lower rolling resistance you should only use latex innertube (in fact there is no excuse for using butyl inner-tubes it is jus a big mistake to use butyl).
My bike is Italian so it is Nervosa and of course has Anorexia I like them thin!
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robnfl
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by robnfl

Amadeus wrote:@Robnfl

Don’t forget it is always about the performance of innertube in combination with tyre. So for better grip and performance ass well for lower rolling resistance you should only use latex innertube (in fact there is no excuse for using butyl inner-tubes it is jus a big mistake to use butyl).


Rog'o...latex it is. I'm put'n my order in Monday :D


Rob
"Speed kills...oh well, we've all gotta go sometime!"

fdegrove
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by fdegrove

robnfl wrote:
Amadeus wrote:@Robnfl

Don’t forget it is always about the performance of innertube in combination with tyre. So for better grip and performance ass well for lower rolling resistance you should only use latex innertube (in fact there is no excuse for using butyl inner-tubes it is jus a big mistake to use butyl).


Rog'o...latex it is. I'm put'n my order in Monday :D


Rob


Hi,

Rob, have you mounted latex inner tubes before?

In case you haven't keep some talcum powder ready to ease the installation and check, make that double check, that no latex is pinched between the rim and tyre before you inflate the thing. Otherwise...Kaboum. :?

While you're at it check that there are no rough edges on you rim, valve hole and that you use a cloth rim tape (if needed). Velox and the like are fine, Michelin's plastic rim tape often present too many rough edges for latex inner tubes too last more than a few hundred miles...

Ciao, :wink:
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.

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tommasini
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by tommasini

theremery - thanks for the heads up on Al Morrison's data

http://www.biketechreview.com/tires/ima ... g_rev8.pdf

I had never seen that before until you referenced it. My own experiance with some of those tires (geeesh he's tested a lot) makes me side more with his data than that of the german Tour mag's. Over the years certain tubbies/tires have given me instant feedback (such being able to ride a 1 tooth harder cog gear) such that I've had a hard time swallowing some of those tests from the other sources.......say it again, my own experiances have me believeing Al's data - thanks.

by Weenie


fdegrove
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by fdegrove

tommasini wrote:theremery - thanks for the heads up on Al Morrison's data

http://www.biketechreview.com/tires/ima ... g_rev8.pdf

I had never seen that before until you referenced it. My own experiance with some of those tires (geeesh he's tested a lot) makes me side more with his data than that of the german Tour mag's. Over the years certain tubbies/tires have given me instant feedback (such being able to ride a 1 tooth harder cog gear) such that I've had a hard time swallowing some of those tests from the other sources.......say it again, my own experiances have me believeing Al's data - thanks.


Hi,

What has swung me over is the honnesty in wich he reports the error in using too little glue.
Admitting errors takes courage and deserves respect.

It's also reassuring to see what many experienced riders knew intuitively converted to hard test figures.

Ciao, :wink:
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.

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