2024 ENVE Fray

[Belisarius]

Got my Fray up an running a couple of weeks ago. The Frame is quite a lot heavier than the marketing statements, 1100g with hanger and bolts in size 58, probably around 1050g without hanger and bolts. The ride is superb though, the bike feels planted on the tarmac in a way my former BMC SLR never did, and that is using the same wheelset on both bikes.

I have one major problem however and a niggle. The problem first, my seatpost is slipping, even when torqued to 6Nm and using carbon paste (Muc off pink one), slips about 1.5 cm every hour. I might have fixed it after a lot of abuse during installation on my last attemt (pulling and pushing the seatpost, then retightening, repeat several times). I also wonder how to get the T47 BB off in an orderly fashion for service, as a T47 tool seems prone to slipping on my Rotor internal 24mm BB. If the Park tool BBR-RS really works I might just get one of them.

20240926_185332.jpg

I had the same issue on the seatpost slipping. I crazy glued some sand paper to the aluminum wedge and no problems now. I don't need crazy torque now either and i'm over 100kg's.

My LBS tried the sand paper with resin and it did not work- the clamp chewed through it or the clamp side worse off is 2-3 rides and I was back to removing the seat post. The issue for slipping is always at the back and sides. The Colnago paint told me exactly where the few contact points were. So the clamp applies as much force on the stiff carbon mast as it can. but the slippage occurs in 75% on the seat post area besides the clamp. As these forces micro twist the seat post (and I was getting a gentle CCW creak and twist), it all twists itself down. Temporarily anchored at the top while still twisting and creaking below the clamp. Any how after consulting Hambini, his solution not working, scouring articles, I realized that it is a common tolerance issue plaguing the entire front clamp based industry. for example my Time clamps at the back of the seatpost and ZERO slippage. Besides the impeccable 0.1-0.2mm fit delta, the Time seatapost gets in gently with pressure and never moves clamped. But my V3Rs At 0.5mm gap any liquid resin sandpaper etc was squeezed, chewed (though glad to hear it worked for you). Seapost angle also matters. Steeper the angle the more downwards the force vector (so a 73 degree seatpost will slide less than a 73.5 or 74).

Anyhow after a brutal failed Sunday ride, when the thing failed twice 5-7 mms I recalled from Japanese craft,the art of fitting habaki for swords that cannot twist or undo during battle. So came up with the foil then brass wrap with JB welt, and leaving the clamp area exposed so it contacts the hard seatpost material.

In my case the 0.2 mm brass wrapped around 75% of the D shape solved it, so the bras was like a C. Power output went up (imagine having to start rides with 3mm higher, then finishing 2 mm lower), speed, comfort, no more twists. the seatpost contact at the back, and around the C shape. the lower resin I left prevent any micro twists.

[Belisarius]

Some issues. The front, with the stock ENVE stem etc, twitchy on a level i never experienced. It was windy, but I ride on windy conditions. However, removing wind from the equation, the front Trail, handlebar combo, headset angle makes the thing want to spin and scramble eggs. Fork wide clearance also played a role, it felt as if the bike was twice the size, and I was trying to ride a fat bike with 32 mm.

Two, at cruising tempo over 30 km per hour, the BB area flexed and the Ultegra 52T gently oscillated sideways. A sublte flex that, for example, I got on my 2012 Giant TCR after 10,000 kms. I am unsure if a stiffer BB would fix that. There were some other creaks- a seatpost creak etc. Paste would fix that. Compartment box creak - so the frame is slightly twisting at pace.

These problems seems strange to me. I have not experienced it as twitchy at all, compared to my late BMC SLR much more stable at speed. Compared to my Factor LS much more stable. When getting up to speed (going downhill) feels planted and stable at least up to 65 km/h I think that was my higest speed last weekend.

I do not feel any problem with stiffnes either, at least up to the level of my BMC, maybe a little more soft than the Factor.

This is the first negative review I've ever read. Very much focused on the time bikes...

Because I was comparing two Non Chinese made performance endurance frames, EU and US made. I also feel everything in a bike, every mm, or in a sports car. Two months ago felt a slight drivetrain flex on my Colnago- turned out the FC-9200 was getting a hairline crack and Colnago TWN factory left epoxy on the threaded shells overlapping at 12 o'clock the last 3 threads- impeding proper T45 parallel tightening. I happen to own a Time ADH01 rim that I bought dec 2023, 50% discount, to save a good 9100 groupset. It is not just shockingly good - barring an aero penalty above 38 km/hour- but of material properties and build quality that relegates bladder mold frames as throw away short lifecycle items. And this ADH01 is outclassed now by the disc iterations and their new ADH X with wider clearance. the Time cost me 3200$ shipped and tax, discounted and I use it as a recovery or aerobic trainer. The Stem and handlebars ar 3T. You do not feel the bike, no vibrations, and seems half the volume of the Fray yet superior in all endurance aspects. Comfort, power transfer, bottom and tube stiffness it feels like titanium. And it is a 2019, dated design whereas the Fray is new. An incredible tool due to the resin Transfer molding and the continuous carbon throughout the frame vs patched glued layers.

So my negative review of the ENVE has a Cartesian reference- its sales pitch, price, vs cost and it's real properties and other choices. I made an error above, it is not 2,000$ CAD to stabilize it, but some 3,000-4,000 to get upgraded SES ENVE rims and solid integrated handlebars. That brings the bike to 17,000$ CAD before taxes which is the price of a S Works SL-8, V4RS with DA, lab 71, 3,000$ less than the Titanium C68, on par with the Melee and 1,000 less than Custom Enve, and so on.

And see the other images, Blackheart Titanium or the top reviewed Reilly Fusion, hydroformed Ti shapes. And these do not creak and absorb vibrations. The Reilly Fusion wighs on par with Frays, at 8.2 kg it is 4 lbs more in size 54 vs an S Works SL8. But these anti frames are more aero and slimmer. And the Fray is big , voluminous and heavy with basic Rims and handlebars. The ENVE SES upgrades above + a better bar would push its weight to 3 lbs over all my other similarly <7 kg equipped bikes.

As you glance at my rims, you already know I am an ENVE user. Enough to wonder when would Team UAE ditch Campagnolo and switch the ENVE and sure enough they did. Best wheels because they keep their angular momentum and inertia, basically they trace straight seemingly immune to winds. They tilt a bit sideways but do not as much yaw, very little change of direction. Whereas my Zipps 303, 404s etc, even on no wind days foil into any breeze and trace S S. So Enve does amazing carbon for rims whereas the zipps remind me of steering my airplane into wind because that is what wing surfaces want to do- balance pressure. Enve just ride straight.

Back to the Fray. The creaks and esp softer BB area, the bulky feel, tell me it has to be bought as a pricey fast commuter and recreational endurance including gravel. If folks want to debate me, perhaps let's do it in quantifiable variables such as weight and price. Hey it it was priced at $6,000 US as it was, it would be a steal.

The Fray price tell me that the Mellee and esp the ENVE custom are the way to go for anyone wanting ENVE US made carbon, but more responsiveness, more speed and quiet watts through the frame. An Enve custom is a beautiful endurance (geometry relative), tempo, fast speed training tool and it has an integrated seatpost. Even non UCI racing. The Mellee is already well reviewed by strong riders and ridden by pros but it has a racing geometry. the Fray tells me to move up the Enve chain, or outside for a top endurance Ti frame that is actually priced slightly less..

[Belisarius]

Hi - Campy follows the Shimano standard. Sorry the bike is in my shop and not going there today. I spray painted the Silca Hanger with Flat Black BBQ paint (very durable it stuck great - in retrospect might have used glossy but the finish might not have been so good). Follow the Campy instructions for removing the screw - you have to change the direction of the Chain gap screw.

This is the best picture I have - if you zoom in you can see it.

Such a nice color. Actually all the Fray colors look pretty great. Did it come with the matching stem?
Enve did such a great job with the geo on this bike. Ride is great even though it's too tall for me.

I didn't realize they had direct mount hangers avail for Enves. Would be nice to see more aftermarket support.

The colour on the Fray I tried was beige. But its appearance was like a molded polymer, so it felt as if the entire tube was of of that color, not painted. It is something I saw on supercars priced 6-7 figures and this is why they look like candy or toys. The carbon top layer is impregnated with the tint and color. If the ENVE blue looks as good, it is a huge plus. I am curious what do they use as paint.

[Belisarius]

Some issues. The front, with the stock ENVE stem etc, twitchy on a level i never experienced. It was windy, but I ride on windy conditions. However, removing wind from the equation, the front Trail, handlebar combo, headset angle makes the thing want to spin and scramble eggs. Fork wide clearance also played a role, it felt as if the bike was twice the size, and I was trying to ride a fat bike with 32 mm.

Two, at cruising tempo over 30 km per hour, the BB area flexed and the Ultegra 52T gently oscillated sideways. A sublte flex that, for example, I got on my 2012 Giant TCR after 10,000 kms. I am unsure if a stiffer BB would fix that. There were some other creaks- a seatpost creak etc. Paste would fix that. Compartment box creak - so the frame is slightly twisting at pace.

These problems seems strange to me. I have not experienced it as twitchy at all, compared to my late BMC SLR much more stable at speed. Compared to my Factor LS much more stable. When getting up to speed (going downhill) feels planted and stable at least up to 65 km/h I think that was my higest speed last weekend.

I do not feel any problem with stiffnes either, at least up to the level of my BMC, maybe a little more soft than the Factor.

Which BMC SLR? I had a chance to try the 2020 SLR and it was too soft, I returned to the BMC booth after 200m, too soft for a 75kg + Vertical, BB just a soft. That was 14,000$ at the time. And went to try other bikes. The 2021 SLR claimed a 20% vertical and BB area stiffness increase to address these issue. I did not test it. Also the groupset makes a huge difference, a 50/36 rider with 170mm will load the BB area less than a 53/39 and 172.5 (more torque). a stiff bike that transfers energy better, I now need 54/40 and I am using the 54T 37% of the time, 54-17 and 54-19 the most. The Fray size 54 had a 50/36 so a soft BB was not for me even at endurance cruise speed.

In terms of numbers, bikes at 120 NM bb area are too soft for me now, vs when I started cycling and groupset were softer and took the load. Now, 140 NM is better, and 160 NM ideal. Interesting if you go read the Specialized and Colnago white papers, see why they reinforced frames. For the V4Rs Colnago reinforced BB and seatstays (and the V3Rs with a Hambini is very stiff)- but they reinforced seatstays as pro or edgers at 70 kg induced stress cracks withing a few thousand kms. Few people know that tensile fatigue is a factor of cumulative load. Whether a 9,000$ frame, 1,000,000 F1 chassis or a 130,000,000$ F35 frame. A finite set of G force and load events before the material plastic and elastic properties change. So pro riders may fatigue frames at 3,000 kms but a 15 kg heavier strong rider will do the same with but higher mileage- 10,000 kms bike parts start loosening. In comparison, 1980s and early 1990s Columbus steel frames (even as ridden by Eddy Merckx) have retained original tensile strength and owners of these aftermarket classics attest to that when comparing side by side. And they used to drill holes in them to reduce weight... Eddie said that when he started his Mexico record, the first thing his Columbus frame did is flex like a noodle and thankfully it stabilized at speed.

In other words, the Fray, from its start point, feel and price, makes no sense. If the reader is a strong rider that can decide, "hey I want to pursuit that dude 800 m ahead", or "I want to keep it at 40 km/hr", will do so a number of times before the Fray starts decaying esp in the BB area. Given its high price (15,000$ min with upgrades) I think the reinforced Custom Enve with endurance geometry or a Ti are a better proposition.

[morrisond]

Some issues. The front, with the stock ENVE stem etc, twitchy on a level i never experienced. It was windy, but I ride on windy conditions. However, removing wind from the equation, the front Trail, handlebar combo, headset angle makes the thing want to spin and scramble eggs. Fork wide clearance also played a role, it felt as if the bike was twice the size, and I was trying to ride a fat bike with 32 mm.

Two, at cruising tempo over 30 km per hour, the BB area flexed and the Ultegra 52T gently oscillated sideways. A sublte flex that, for example, I got on my 2012 Giant TCR after 10,000 kms. I am unsure if a stiffer BB would fix that. There were some other creaks- a seatpost creak etc. Paste would fix that. Compartment box creak - so the frame is slightly twisting at pace.

These problems seems strange to me. I have not experienced it as twitchy at all, compared to my late BMC SLR much more stable at speed. Compared to my Factor LS much more stable. When getting up to speed (going downhill) feels planted and stable at least up to 65 km/h I think that was my higest speed last weekend.

I do not feel any problem with stiffnes either, at least up to the level of my BMC, maybe a little more soft than the Factor.

This is the first negative review I've ever read. Very much focused on the time bikes...

Because I was comparing two Non Chinese made performance endurance frames, EU and US made. I also feel everything in a bike, every mm, or in a sports car. Two months ago felt a slight drivetrain flex on my Colnago- turned out the FC-9200 was getting a hairline crack and Colnago TWN factory left epoxy on the threaded shells overlapping at 12 o'clock the last 3 threads- impeding proper T45 parallel tightening. I happen to own a Time ADH01 rim that I bought dec 2023, 50% discount, to save a good 9100 groupset. It is not just shockingly good - barring an aero penalty above 38 km/hour- but of material properties and build quality that relegates bladder mold frames as throw away short lifecycle items. And this ADH01 is outclassed now by the disc iterations and their new ADH X with wider clearance. the Time cost me 3200$ shipped and tax, discounted and I use it as a recovery or aerobic trainer. The Stem and handlebars ar 3T. You do not feel the bike, no vibrations, and seems half the volume of the Fray yet superior in all endurance aspects. Comfort, power transfer, bottom and tube stiffness it feels like titanium. And it is a 2019, dated design whereas the Fray is new. An incredible tool due to the resin Transfer molding and the continuous carbon throughout the frame vs patched glued layers.

So my negative review of the ENVE has a Cartesian reference- its sales pitch, price, vs cost and it's real properties and other choices. I made an error above, it is not 2,000$ CAD to stabilize it, but some 3,000-4,000 to get upgraded SES ENVE rims and solid integrated handlebars. That brings the bike to 17,000$ CAD before taxes which is the price of a S Works SL-8, V4RS with DA, lab 71, 3,000$ less than the Titanium C68, on par with the Melee and 1,000 less than Custom Enve, and so on.

And see the other images, Blackheart Titanium or the top reviewed Reilly Fusion, hydroformed Ti shapes. And these do not creak and absorb vibrations. The Reilly Fusion wighs on par with Frays, at 8.2 kg it is 4 lbs more in size 54 vs an S Works SL8. But these anti frames are more aero and slimmer. And the Fray is big , voluminous and heavy with basic Rims and handlebars. The ENVE SES upgrades above + a better bar would push its weight to 3 lbs over all my other similarly <7 kg equipped bikes.

As you glance at my rims, you already know I am an ENVE user. Enough to wonder when would Team UAE ditch Campagnolo and switch the ENVE and sure enough they did. Best wheels because they keep their angular momentum and inertia, basically they trace straight seemingly immune to winds. They tilt a bit sideways but do not as much yaw, very little change of direction. Whereas my Zipps 303, 404s etc, even on no wind days foil into any breeze and trace S S. So Enve does amazing carbon for rims whereas the zipps remind me of steering my airplane into wind because that is what wing surfaces want to do- balance pressure. Enve just ride straight.

Back to the Fray. The creaks and esp softer BB area, the bulky feel, tell me it has to be bought as a pricey fast commuter and recreational endurance including gravel. If folks want to debate me, perhaps let's do it in quantifiable variables such as weight and price. Hey it it was priced at $6,000 US as it was, it would be a steal.

The Fray price tell me that the Mellee and esp the ENVE custom are the way to go for anyone wanting ENVE US made carbon, but more responsiveness, more speed and quiet watts through the frame. An Enve custom is a beautiful endurance (geometry relative), tempo, fast speed training tool and it has an integrated seatpost. Even non UCI racing. The Mellee is already well reviewed by strong riders and ridden by pros but it has a racing geometry. the Fray tells me to move up the Enve chain, or outside for a top endurance Ti frame that is actually priced slightly less..

In terms of the twitchiness - are you riding a Setback seatpost or straight? Maybe the frame is too small for you as well. I'm a very big guy running a straight seatpost and yes if I sit more forward it's more responsive but even with 57mm Fulcrum Wheels I wouldn't call it twitchy - just responsive and not slow at all.

What BB are you using the run Ultegra cranks in T47? I'm running WRL in Campy cups and no issues with BB stiffness. I did have a bike which did have that issue - Parlee ESX which was a noodle coming over a rise - but the FRAY is nothing like that. I wouldn't call it super stiff but it is more than sufficient.

[pmprego]

int, feel and price, makes no sense. If the reader is a strong rider that can decide, "hey I want to pursuit that dude 800 m ahead", or "I want to keep it at 40 km/hr", will do so a number of times before the Fray starts decaying esp in the BB area. Given its high price (15,000$ min with upgrades) I think the reinforced Custom Enve with endurance geometry or a Ti are a better proposition.

Bottom bracket stiffness: 61 N/mm

This is for the sl8 by tour magazine and they claim it to be the perfect number. Just a reference.

[EtoDemerzel]

These problems seems strange to me. I have not experienced it as twitchy at all, compared to my late BMC SLR much more stable at speed. Compared to my Factor LS much more stable. When getting up to speed (going downhill) feels planted and stable at least up to 65 km/h I think that was my higest speed last weekend.

I do not feel any problem with stiffnes either, at least up to the level of my BMC, maybe a little more soft than the Factor.

This is the first negative review I've ever read. Very much focused on the time bikes...

Because I was comparing two Non Chinese made performance endurance frames, EU and US made. I also feel everything in a bike, every mm, or in a sports car. Two months ago felt a slight drivetrain flex on my Colnago- turned out the FC-9200 was getting a hairline crack and Colnago TWN factory left epoxy on the threaded shells overlapping at 12 o'clock the last 3 threads- impeding proper T45 parallel tightening. I happen to own a Time ADH01 rim that I bought dec 2023, 50% discount, to save a good 9100 groupset. It is not just shockingly good - barring an aero penalty above 38 km/hour- but of material properties and build quality that relegates bladder mold frames as throw away short lifecycle items. And this ADH01 is outclassed now by the disc iterations and their new ADH X with wider clearance. the Time cost me 3200$ shipped and tax, discounted and I use it as a recovery or aerobic trainer. The Stem and handlebars ar 3T. You do not feel the bike, no vibrations, and seems half the volume of the Fray yet superior in all endurance aspects. Comfort, power transfer, bottom and tube stiffness it feels like titanium. And it is a 2019, dated design whereas the Fray is new. An incredible tool due to the resin Transfer molding and the continuous carbon throughout the frame vs patched glued layers.

So my negative review of the ENVE has a Cartesian reference- its sales pitch, price, vs cost and it's real properties and other choices. I made an error above, it is not 2,000$ CAD to stabilize it, but some 3,000-4,000 to get upgraded SES ENVE rims and solid integrated handlebars. That brings the bike to 17,000$ CAD before taxes which is the price of a S Works SL-8, V4RS with DA, lab 71, 3,000$ less than the Titanium C68, on par with the Melee and 1,000 less than Custom Enve, and so on.

And see the other images, Blackheart Titanium or the top reviewed Reilly Fusion, hydroformed Ti shapes. And these do not creak and absorb vibrations. The Reilly Fusion wighs on par with Frays, at 8.2 kg it is 4 lbs more in size 54 vs an S Works SL8. But these anti frames are more aero and slimmer. And the Fray is big , voluminous and heavy with basic Rims and handlebars. The ENVE SES upgrades above + a better bar would push its weight to 3 lbs over all my other similarly <7 kg equipped bikes.

As you glance at my rims, you already know I am an ENVE user. Enough to wonder when would Team UAE ditch Campagnolo and switch the ENVE and sure enough they did. Best wheels because they keep their angular momentum and inertia, basically they trace straight seemingly immune to winds. They tilt a bit sideways but do not as much yaw, very little change of direction. Whereas my Zipps 303, 404s etc, even on no wind days foil into any breeze and trace S S. So Enve does amazing carbon for rims whereas the zipps remind me of steering my airplane into wind because that is what wing surfaces want to do- balance pressure. Enve just ride straight.

Back to the Fray. The creaks and esp softer BB area, the bulky feel, tell me it has to be bought as a pricey fast commuter and recreational endurance including gravel. If folks want to debate me, perhaps let's do it in quantifiable variables such as weight and price. Hey it it was priced at $6,000 US as it was, it would be a steal.

The Fray price tell me that the Mellee and esp the ENVE custom are the way to go for anyone wanting ENVE US made carbon, but more responsiveness, more speed and quiet watts through the frame. An Enve custom is a beautiful endurance (geometry relative), tempo, fast speed training tool and it has an integrated seatpost. Even non UCI racing. The Mellee is already well reviewed by strong riders and ridden by pros but it has a racing geometry. the Fray tells me to move up the Enve chain, or outside for a top endurance Ti frame that is actually priced slightly less..

In terms of the twitchiness - are you riding a Setback seatpost or straight? Maybe the frame is too small for you as well. I'm a very big guy running a straight seatpost and yes if I sit more forward it's more responsive but even with 57mm Fulcrum Wheels I wouldn't call it twitchy - just responsive and not slow at all.

What BB are you using the run Ultegra cranks in T47? I'm running WRL in Campy cups and no issues with BB stiffness. I did have a bike which did have that issue - Parlee ESX which was a noodle coming over a rise - but the FRAY is nothing like that. I wouldn't call it super stiff but it is more than sufficient.

I tested a 52 and it was brilliant. Headtube was too tall for me but this is an all road bike, so its perfect for the intended market.
It's also good if someone's fit requires a taller stack.
Handling and overall geo is great. It's dialed. I love the integrated storage and uhd makes it futureproof, though I just had a day with it.

[morrisond]

int, feel and price, makes no sense. If the reader is a strong rider that can decide, "hey I want to pursuit that dude 800 m ahead", or "I want to keep it at 40 km/hr", will do so a number of times before the Fray starts decaying esp in the BB area. Given its high price (15,000$ min with upgrades) I think the reinforced Custom Enve with endurance geometry or a Ti are a better proposition.

Bottom bracket stiffness: 61 N/mm

This is for the sl8 by tour magazine and they claim it to be the perfect number. Just a reference.

Isn't he also using ENVE wheels? I don't think anyone would call them stiff. It's why I use Fulcrums with 2:1 - very responsive.

[Belisarius]

int, feel and price, makes no sense. If the reader is a strong rider that can decide, "hey I want to pursuit that dude 800 m ahead", or "I want to keep it at 40 km/hr", will do so a number of times before the Fray starts decaying esp in the BB area. Given its high price (15,000$ min with upgrades) I think the reinforced Custom Enve with endurance geometry or a Ti are a better proposition.

Bottom bracket stiffness: 61 N/mm

This is for the sl8 by tour magazine and they claim it to be the perfect number. Just a reference.

They have several measurement metrics. newtons per mm, NEwtons per degree, BB or sea tube for vertical etc. also different testing machines. Interesting that a recent YouTube review claimed that the SL8 should be stiffer as intended for light pro riders. For me seatube area 140 newtons or higher. new, as it was, with ultegra, the Enve BB is soft compared to the V3Rs (original t45 and Hambini) and Time pressfit. My giant TCR 2012 is now softened at 10,000 kms but 2011-2012 reviews from the period had it as stiffest thing, it was for the time.

[Belisarius]

int, feel and price, makes no sense. If the reader is a strong rider that can decide, "hey I want to pursuit that dude 800 m ahead", or "I want to keep it at 40 km/hr", will do so a number of times before the Fray starts decaying esp in the BB area. Given its high price (15,000$ min with upgrades) I think the reinforced Custom Enve with endurance geometry or a Ti are a better proposition.

Bottom bracket stiffness: 61 N/mm

This is for the sl8 by tour magazine and they claim it to be the perfect number. Just a reference.

Isn't he also using ENVE wheels? I don't think anyone would call them stiff. It's why I use Fulcrums with 2:1 - very responsive.

Not Lightweight Stiff but do not get brake rub nor spoke on spoke creaks. But I opted for Chris King 45 hubs on my rim brake SES and DT240 for my disc SES. That dictated the lacing pattern. My Zipps were too flexy and constantly rubbing brake surfaces. I solved on one 303 set going for Chris king with Sapim spokes, brake rub gone. So wheel build and hub play a role too. What ENVE does well, not just wind tunnel testing labs, but also real life, they preserve angular momentum and high inertia. So the wheel resists side forces e.g. yaw or wind gusts and traces straight. Zipps, esp downhill 70-80 km per hour, scared me with wobbles and never did it again on those rims. Campagnolo were also reputed to be a benchmark, hinges change. Take Cadex, on paper very light in real world twitchy and throw the rider with the wind. A combination of low angular momentum and carbon spokes have them questioned in all reviews. In the end a steady straight tracing wheel will be faster than a lighter but twitchy one , at equal profile.'

Either or, the Fray I tested came with Enve 45 and they are basic at best. An all road bike with basic wheels, basic handlebars, at 9500-10,000 USD all road bike with multiple compromise items, iffy BB area and very twitchy front end. Adding better components shoots it up to 12,000 USD and begs the question why not Enve custom with better stiffness to weight ratio and an integrated seatpost...

[morrisond]

int, feel and price, makes no sense. If the reader is a strong rider that can decide, "hey I want to pursuit that dude 800 m ahead", or "I want to keep it at 40 km/hr", will do so a number of times before the Fray starts decaying esp in the BB area. Given its high price (15,000$ min with upgrades) I think the reinforced Custom Enve with endurance geometry or a Ti are a better proposition.

Bottom bracket stiffness: 61 N/mm

This is for the sl8 by tour magazine and they claim it to be the perfect number. Just a reference.

Isn't he also using ENVE wheels? I don't think anyone would call them stiff. It's why I use Fulcrums with 2:1 - very responsive.

Not Lightweight Stiff but do not get brake rub nor spoke on spoke creaks. But I opted for Chris King 45 hubs on my rim brake SES and DT240 for my disc SES. That dictated the lacing pattern. My Zipps were too flexy and constantly rubbing brake surfaces. I solved on one 303 set going for Chris king with Sapim spokes, brake rub gone. So wheel build and hub play a role too. What ENVE does well, not just wind tunnel testing labs, but also real life, they preserve angular momentum and high inertia. So the wheel resists side forces e.g. yaw or wind gusts and traces straight. Zipps, esp downhill 70-80 km per hour, scared me with wobbles and never did it again on those rims. Campagnolo were also reputed to be a benchmark, hinges change. Take Cadex, on paper very light in real world twitchy and throw the rider with the wind. A combination of low angular momentum and carbon spokes have them questioned in all reviews. In the end a steady straight tracing wheel will be faster than a lighter but twitchy one , at equal profile.'

Either or, the Fray I tested came with Enve 45 and they are basic at best. An all road bike with basic wheels, basic handlebars, at 9500-10,000 USD all road bike with multiple compromise items, iffy BB area and very twitchy front end. Adding better components shoots it up to 12,000 USD and begs the question why not Enve custom with better stiffness to weight ratio and an integrated seatpost...

Neither King or Dt 240 are considered stiff hubs - very good hubs, but not stiff. Some people don't want the seatpost as its a pain for travel and it doesn't have the storage compartment - that really is nice on the Fray.

What BB are you using on your cranks? Is it the Hambini one with what looks like a Delrin insert? If it is - that can't be that stiff.

In any case if you bought the Fray to be a Super stiff race bike - you bought the wrong bike. It's really an all-road bike that will go if you stomp on it. I run mine with 32mm GP5's and its brilliant. A bunch stiffer than my Custom Firefly which is 7/8' stays, T47 and 44mm DT and 3D printed dropouts.

[pmprego]

Enve custom with better stiffness to weight ratio and an integrated seatpost...

Did enve ever released stiffness metrics to the public? Either the custom or any other of their bikes?

Giant I know it does. Again... Just a reference. Giant says the defy (endurance) has bigger stiffness at the bb than the TCR (the racing bike of course).

[morrisond]

Enve custom with better stiffness to weight ratio and an integrated seatpost...

Did enve ever released stiffness metrics to the public? Either the custom or any other of their bikes?

Giant I know it does. Again... Just a reference. Giant says the defy (endurance) has bigger stiffness at the bb than the TCR (the racing bike of course).

From Tour Magazine - 57NM for the Melee - that's definitely not a noodle - I remember reading something when the FRAY was launched that it was the same stiffness.

Measurement values ​​and individual grades *****
Weight complete bike 7.3 kilos 2.3
Steering head stiffness 96 Nm/° 1.3
Lateral stiffness fork 43 N/mm 2.7
Bottom bracket stiffness 57 N/mm 1.7
Spring hardness seat post 149 N/mm 1.7
Aerodynamics****** 218 Watt 2.7

[B0tt0mline]

I have the Aethos and the Fray and the Aethos is not stiffer at all

Too much internet again, come on...

[maquisard]

Same with suggesting that a Ti bike has the stiffest BB area.

Maybe if it weighed about 2kg yes, not for the Ti bikes mentioned.

Absolutely hilarious!