Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

BenCousins
Posts: 1366
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by BenCousins

r_mutt wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:40 am
robertbb wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:35 am
Sock3t wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:44 pm
The further we stray from mechanical shifting, the further we stray from affordable groupsets.
Except it's actually cheaper to produce electronic groupsets - particularly once the initial design work is done.

No ratchets, no springs, no cam mechanism, pull ratios or materials wear testing... no intricate small parts (like a mechanical watch). No complex assembly - especially at the shifter. Just a printed circuit and some logic chips. Motors are very cheap too - particularly in bulk.

Electronic sounds fancy but as a feat of engineering and manufacturing they are actually WAY easier.

Manufacturers must be loving it - half the cost to produce, double (or triple) the RRP.
R&D? Doesn't that play into it?
Yes, but R&D costs can be amortised over several generations as the basic tech is reused on the high end and as the tech trickles down into cheaper groupsets. The invention of the quick release was probably expensive in R&D, but I'm assuming they've got a positive ROI on it!

There's no question that long term electronic will be a much cheaper option to design and manufacture.

rollinslow
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by rollinslow

graeme_f_k wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:05 am
r_mutt wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:36 pm
Bondurant wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:30 pm
I would also like to chip in and thank Graeme for his always-thoughtful posts.

It's petty but I do find it risible that Rolex watches are the 'luxury' comparison on this thread. They are a mass-produced watch with great marketing. If anyone wants to draw a luxury, hand-built comparison when pigeonholing Campag, Rolex are probably not the best choice. If Campag sold the volumes Rolex does they would be doing rather well.
I'm not a watch person, but what watch brand(s) would be a better comparison for this, in your opinion?
I'll take the criticism.

I wouldn't say, as someone comments in the thread that it's a "risible" comparison but for sure, it's not the best one. Rolex is, though, an obvious go-to because it has brand recognition so people have in their mind what a Rolex looks like.

Actually, in some ways a better comparison would be a company like Richard Mille - radical-looking designs which some will love, others will hate, with a high price point and a high degree of mechanical and artisinal integrity.
Unfortunately, there is just no reality where the new SR WL groupset could be compared to a Richard Mille. You have a very unique design that looks nothing like competitors, the highest quality of manufacture and material construction. Then there is the price is basically only for celebrities and sponsored athletes. The only comparison I can make for the groupset is to SRAM and FSA WE because they look strikingly similar.

For the record I will still probably buy the groupset because I am that big of a committed customer.
Last edited by rollinslow on Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sock3t
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by Sock3t

robertbb wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:35 am
Sock3t wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:44 pm
The further we stray from mechanical shifting, the further we stray from affordable groupsets.
Except it's actually cheaper to produce electronic groupsets - particularly once the initial design work is done.

No ratchets, no springs, no cam mechanism, pull ratios or materials wear testing... no intricate small parts (like a mechanical watch). No complex assembly - especially at the shifter. Just a printed circuit and some logic chips. Motors are very cheap too - particularly in bulk.

Electronic sounds fancy but as a feat of engineering and manufacturing they are actually WAY easier.

Manufacturers must be loving it - half the cost to produce, double (or triple) the RRP.

Then why aren't electronic groupsets cheaper?

Because they're complex to develop and the brands need to recover profit from those R&D expenditures. So sure, perhaps in 10+ years when they've recovered those expenditures, they'll consider cutting margins.

spartan
Posts: 1747
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

the chinese are coming end of this year it will be available from several manufacturers. ltwo,sensha

when you have a duopoly (sram/shimano) prices can be kept high. think about it a electronic shifter is super cheap to manufacture vs mechanical system that has dozens of individual parts that are all proprietary. a tv remote wireless cost how much to produce .a couple of dollars. look at current price of mech 105 shifter vs di2 105.

the average consumer beleives more expensive = better.



Sock3t wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:13 pm
robertbb wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:35 am
Sock3t wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:44 pm
The further we stray from mechanical shifting, the further we stray from affordable groupsets.
Except it's actually cheaper to produce electronic groupsets - particularly once the initial design work is done.

No ratchets, no springs, no cam mechanism, pull ratios or materials wear testing... no intricate small parts (like a mechanical watch). No complex assembly - especially at the shifter. Just a printed circuit and some logic chips. Motors are very cheap too - particularly in bulk.

Electronic sounds fancy but as a feat of engineering and manufacturing they are actually WAY easier.

Manufacturers must be loving it - half the cost to produce, double (or triple) the RRP.

Then why aren't electronic groupsets cheaper?

Because they're complex to develop and the brands need to recover profit from those R&D expenditures. So sure, perhaps in 10+ years when they've recovered those expenditures, they'll consider cutting margins.
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EdWiser
Posts: 188
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by EdWiser

Just an observation as a longtime Campagnolo rider. First is that Road cycling is no longer the main type of cycling that it use to be. Mountain Bikes and gravel bikes are way more popular now days than road bike. Just walk into a LBS and see that many stores only order road bikes anymore. MTBR has 3 times the daily post as any road bike forum.
So the road bike groups are not a vary big market anymore. Campagnolo with Ekar started into to that market again. An it has been successful. Wireless is all the rage now days to think this all started with us bike in the 80’s wrapping our cables underneath our bar tape. It is going to take several versions to get these wireless groups to “LOOK” as good as we want them too. The price I guess no one has any other “hobbies “ Any hobby you have has equipment that cost this much or way more dollars.
If I was running Campagnolo I would use Apple’s design strategy. Design in Italy and work ever closely with a Chinese manufacturer to produce the product.
They need to realize they are a premium brand and working with a manufacturer to develop products that excite their users is in their best interest. At the small volume of groups sets sold this causes the price to rise

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MDecius
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:50 pm

by MDecius

EdWiser wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:08 pm
Just an observation as a longtime Campagnolo rider. First is that Road cycling is no longer the main type of cycling that it use to be. Mountain Bikes and gravel bikes are way more popular now days than road bike. Just walk into a LBS and see that many stores only order road bikes anymore. MTBR has 3 times the daily post as any road bike forum.
So the road bike groups are not a vary big market anymore. Campagnolo with Ekar started into to that market again. An it has been successful. Wireless is all the rage now days to think this all started with us bike in the 80’s wrapping our cables underneath our bar tape. It is going to take several versions to get these wireless groups to “LOOK” as good as we want them too. The price I guess no one has any other “hobbies “ Any hobby you have has equipment that cost this much or way more dollars.
If I was running Campagnolo I would use Apple’s design strategy. Design in Italy and work ever closely with a Chinese manufacturer to produce the product.
They need to realize they are a premium brand and working with a manufacturer to develop products that excite their users is in their best interest. At the small volume of groups sets sold this causes the price to rise
I have not been around long enough in cycling to comment on the history of Campagnolo, but I have been around in electronics long enough to remember dial-up modems, dumb-phones, and then Apple came out with the first iPhone.

They blew people's minds, and changed the world with that. I doubt any company can do something similar in cycling and be seen as _such_ a premium company that they can charge massive premiums over their competitors' prices and have people still pay for it. Apple can do that.
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usr
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by usr

Sock3t wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:13 pm

Then why aren't electronic groupsets cheaper?
For the same reason the price of DA is so much higher than that of Sora. Some of that difference is cost, most is not.

(But Sora also illustrates that building mechanical groups isn't exactly expensive either. Manufacturing electronic shifting can be very cheap, that much I agree with robertbb, but that handful of moderate precision parts that mechanical has that motor shifting skips are also not inherently costly)

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:51 pm
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:30 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:11 pm
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:03 pm


I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...

What do you want Campagnolo to say...don't Shimano and Sram also say similar things??? and then all kinds of mixes are made......
I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...
Right and any kind of "mixes made" as you said also void your warranty... there's people with pull on here that have said that before who I trust and deal with regularly... and whos to say the number of chain drops and mechanicals lately in pro races isn't because of the "mixes being made" the more techy this stuff gets, the more finicky this stuff gets....
warranty? what problem could there be? How would the brand know if you used one thing or another........I've been involved in this bike business (not professionally) since I was 16-17 years old (I'm almost 55) I don't consider myself very smart.... but I do not see certain "ghosts" in certain matters of material that it seems that you see some
I've written extensively at various times both on this forum and elsewhere, about why any maker would deny warranty on combinations of components that they haven't tested in-house.
I wrote it some time ago but if you look here, you can see an article I wrote:

http://pimpmytoolbox.blogspot.com/2016/

It's important to remember that warranty isn't just about "I was JRA and my rear mech exploded" ... it can be about "I can get a smooth upshift but not a smooth downshift", or, "however I set my FD up, the chain either throws over the big chainring, or doesn't upshift" ... and so on.

Liability can also be important - we had a case where a customer had a tyre part company with a Bora One DB. He fell and was extensively injured and his bike was badly damaged. It transpired he'd set up the non-tubeless compatible rim, as tubeless, against the recommendations made. His "mates" had all said - "it'll be fine". It wasn't.

Often on 11 & 12s systems we can look at the back of a big chainring where front shifting is compromised and say "yes, third party chain" because we can see scuff marks where a Campagnolo chain (say) doesn't leave scuff marks ...

Most warranty managers know exactly what they are looking for, in any given set of circumstances. We have a whole world of experience to draw on from the SCs in every country and within Campagnolo (and I know it is the same to some extent in other brands, too) we all exchange information and best practice. Most of us are in touch with other brands warranty managers and in some cases, have worked in warranty or some other capacity for more than one brand ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Sock3t wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:13 pm
Then why aren't electronic groupsets cheaper?

Because they're complex to develop and the brands need to recover profit from those R&D expenditures. So sure, perhaps in 10+ years when they've recovered those expenditures, they'll consider cutting margins.

It's because there is no competition in the road market. Shimano and Sram set their prices in relation to each other.

Go price di2 12 speed mountain bike parts. They are relatively inexpensive compared to road parts. An XT di2 rear derailleur is way cheaper than a Record mechanical rear derailleur or a Rival etap rear derailleur.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

AJS914 wrote:
Sock3t wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:13 pm
Then why aren't electronic groupsets cheaper?

Because they're complex to develop and the brands need to recover profit from those R&D expenditures. So sure, perhaps in 10+ years when they've recovered those expenditures, they'll consider cutting margins.

It's because there is no competition in the road market. Shimano and Sram set their prices in relation to each other.

Go price di2 12 speed mountain bike parts. They are relatively inexpensive compared to road parts. An XT di2 rear derailleur is way cheaper than a Record mechanical rear derailleur or a Rival etap rear derailleur.
Wrong on all counts.

XT Di2 rear mech £330
Record Mech - £215
Rival AXS Mech - £300

Looks like the opposite to your claim.


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BenCousins
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by BenCousins

EdWiser wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:08 pm
Just an observation as a longtime Campagnolo rider. First is that Road cycling is no longer the main type of cycling that it use to be. Mountain Bikes and gravel bikes are way more popular now days than road bike. Just walk into a LBS and see that many stores only order road bikes anymore.
You forgot Ebikes. Right at the front of every store here.

Xabi
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by Xabi

Let's hope that the Chinese shake the market up, just like they did with carbon rims

AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Looking on google shopping from legit sellers, I find:

Record Mech - $250
XT di2 rear deraileur - $219
Rival - $270

My point still stands. If electronic bike parts were so expensive to produce, then mechanical should be way cheaper and electronic shouild be a lot more expensive. But we know that this is not how prices are set. Shimano/Sram set the price and then Campagnolo goes higher as the premium product.

I'm also noticing large discounts on Record/Chorus mechanical right now. Either it's not selling well or they are coming out with something new. I'm guessing the former.

tomato
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by tomato

zappafile123 wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:04 am
... if you scream into the winds in a place like weightweenies where there are brand reps, you might just get a flicker of attention and hopefully nudge the prospect of a second thought for next time. The pole isnt looking too good which vindicates the knee jerk anger reaction of the OP.
The poll results are meaningless, given the incredibly biased thread title. It's like an approval poll for a politician linked inside an article titled "Joe Jones is a Lying Cheating Scumbag."

Vespasianus
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by Vespasianus

BenCousins wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:35 pm
EdWiser wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:08 pm
Just an observation as a longtime Campagnolo rider. First is that Road cycling is no longer the main type of cycling that it use to be. Mountain Bikes and gravel bikes are way more popular now days than road bike. Just walk into a LBS and see that many stores only order road bikes anymore.
You forgot Ebikes. Right at the front of every store here.
Yeah, that and gravel is the only thing increasing. MTB sales (non e-bike) are flat.
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