NEW Trek Emonda ALR 2023

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jfranci3
Posts: 1572
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

Knightyboy27 wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:32 am
fizzaz wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:38 pm

Not to mention, this frame will have a heavy leaning towards newer riders who will have a higher bar setup with spacers and room beneath for cables/hoses.
That's what the Domane ALR is for.

This has the same race geometry as the carbon Emonda, and will likely be marketed much more towards crit racers/people who aren't bothered about carbon/want to have an aluminium bike (e.g. for travelling)
Most people who put a lot of spacers under their stem, don't care about having too many spacers under their stem. I think putting that major fit difference between the Domane and the Emonda makes a lot of sense. What I'm suprised about is that they didn't combine the Crockett CX bike with the Emonda, adding some tire clearance to the Emonda. Making it a race / CX/ race gravel bike, as the biggest differences are 1cm of seat tube length, 1cm of chainstay, and 1.5deg of headtube angle (probably the biggest differnce).
They also need to cover a pricepoint for 'performance' bikes. Adding more of a fit arguement for the Emonda will build some enthusism from reviews to support buying an AL frame at this price point - especiallhy if they are reading an article from 2-3 years ago. Currently, they have 105 CF bikes at $3300, which used to be about $2k in 2021. That's a big gap to go from a $1600 Tiagra AL bike to an atractive 'performance' level. Being a bigger vendor, Trek can service the highend AL pricepoint market way better than the small and medium size brands because of the economies of scale needed for AL bikes. It makes a lot of sense to widen the gap between the Domane AL, which will be a slighly lower (~$200) pricepoint and already has the Checkpoint right there.

I'm suprised they left tire clearance at 28c. I'm not sure if this was for weight, to differentiate it from the Domane, factory tooling, or to allow for some smaller frame sizes. I'm guessing the later.

by Weenie


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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Trek kept the Boone as a pure CX bike with just enough tire clearance. I don’t see them consolidating the Crockett and Emonda ALR any time soon.

romanmoser
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 8:30 pm

by romanmoser

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:31 am
Frankly internal routing and a clean look is what customers want. It looks nice. Also most cyclists don’t work on their own bikes so it’s the shop’s problem. Now throw in some solid polymer lube headset bearings and the bike will likely never need a headset bearing replacement.
That's the promise on papers
Except it doesnt work like that in the real world
Sauce ? Mechanics speaking loud and clear in their name, working with factor ostro and having to change headset on many, and still service required even if not changed.

regularguy
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:06 pm

by regularguy

Nobody has anything more on this? Dying to know - hopefully will be my next bike.

Is it common to have renders as placeholders? Why would they need to be so detailed/accurate, as opposed to any placeholder image used before real photos are uploaded?

rhender
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:49 pm

by rhender

I am still pretty pumped for this. My primary reasons for not going with the new Allez Sprint were price, weight, and the look of those "SmartWelds." Trek has got the price and weight down, and (if the previous ALRs are any indication) they can make much smoother looking welds--basically seamless. Definitely thinking this will be my next bike.

I am curious about the renders as well. Looks like different paint for framesets vs. completes going off the preorder options? Personally, I love white bikes but not sure about those flag details on the "Era White" option.

regularguy
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:06 pm

by regularguy

Agreed.

Also, I think the new Allez Sprint has really ugly cable routing. If this new Emonda ALR cleans it up fully (like the renders show), or at least routes cables like the carbon Emonda does, that would be incredible. Hopefully Trek sees that using fully internal routing doesn't really cost the company any more, and that using it only on high-end carbon bikes causes Trek to miss out on sales at more reasonable prices.

My final hope is that there is no permanently-fixed FD mount. I'd build this bike 1X, and even a removable FD mount would be great. I'm encouraged as the renders of the frameset option seems to show a clean downtube without any mount. Come on Trek!

regularguy
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:06 pm

by regularguy

Heard a rumor at my LBS (Trek dealer) that this new ALR will be within 50g of an Emonda SL frameset. Is this believable?

Can anyone confirm

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

regularguy wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:10 am
Heard a rumor at my LBS (Trek dealer) that this new ALR will be within 50g of an Emonda SL frameset. Is this believable?

Can anyone confirm

They made similar claims before. One sneaky difference is the ALR requires a full seatpost and the SL takes a much lighter seatmast cap.

jfranci3
Posts: 1572
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

That's about right on the weight. For example, the current framesets are listed as the same weight but the SL has an integrated seatpost (which doesn't add much weight to the frame side and foregoes the clamp weight) - the ALR is probably 50-100gr lighter. The actual paint job probably makes a bigger difference.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bike ... purpledark
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bike ... edark_blue

As a material, Carbon laminates (as implimented) and Aluminium weigh about the same- you save weight by using less material. The ALR frames are pretty heavily worked AL frames and the SL frames are not all that aggressive carbon layups with aero features (the SLR is 400gr lighter for example). The ALR units are pretty light and the SL units have more features. Cheap carbon framesets were only lighter than butted AL framesets when no one wanted to make fancier AL framesets (custom tube sizes , hydroformed tubes, heat treated AL, etc). Carbon also needs a lot more extra material to cover potential manufactuing defects.

justkeepedaling
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:14 am

by justkeepedaling

jfranci3 wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:49 pm
That's about right on the weight. For example, the current framesets are listed as the same weight but the SL has an integrated seatpost (which doesn't add much weight to the frame side and foregoes the clamp weight) - the ALR is probably 50-100gr lighter. The actual paint job probably makes a bigger difference.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bike ... purpledark
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bike ... edark_blue

As a material, Carbon laminates (as implimented) and Aluminium weigh about the same- you save weight by using less material. The ALR frames are pretty heavily worked AL frames and the SL frames are not all that aggressive carbon layups with aero features (the SLR is 400gr lighter for example). The ALR units are pretty light and the SL units have more features. Cheap carbon framesets were only lighter than butted AL framesets when no one wanted to make fancier AL framesets (custom tube sizes , hydroformed tubes, heat treated AL, etc). Carbon also needs a lot more extra material to cover potential manufactuing defects.
Not sure what you mean. Carbon fiber has density of 0.056 lb/in^3, about 1/2 of Aluminum. It is stronger and stiffer as well. It does not dent. I do love my CAAD10 though

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The ALR is loosely based on the 2018 Emonda SLR in terms of shape/profile. It was heavier than the 2018 Emonda SL.

The 2021 models gained weight in the name of cable integration and semi-aero tube shapes.

The new ALR will be >100g heavier than the current Emonda SL once built up.

jfranci3
Posts: 1572
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

:D
justkeepedaling wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:55 pm
jfranci3 wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:49 pm
That's about right on the weight. For example, the current framesets are listed as the same weight but the SL has an integrated seatpost (which doesn't add much weight to the frame side and foregoes the clamp weight) - the ALR is probably 50-100gr lighter. The actual paint job probably makes a bigger difference.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bike ... purpledark
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bike ... edark_blue

As a material, Carbon laminates (as implimented) and Aluminium weigh about the same- you save weight by using less material. The ALR frames are pretty heavily worked AL frames and the SL frames are not all that aggressive carbon layups with aero features (the SLR is 400gr lighter for example). The ALR units are pretty light and the SL units have more features. Cheap carbon framesets were only lighter than butted AL framesets when no one wanted to make fancier AL framesets (custom tube sizes , hydroformed tubes, heat treated AL, etc). Carbon also needs a lot more extra material to cover potential manufactuing defects.
Not sure what you mean. Carbon fiber has density of 0.056 lb/in^3, about 1/2 of Aluminum. It is stronger and stiffer as well. It does not dent. I do love my CAAD10 though

Are CF bikes just made out of carbon fibers? Are you making a lob of CF or a bike?

CyclingTips podcast has done a pretty good job of highlighting this. "Carbon Fiber bikes" are 40-60% carbon and 40-60% resin (and some other stuff). That number is a theoretical number, not a practical one.

Aluminum manufacturing is more consistent than composite ons, so you don't need as much extra safety material. You also start with a pretty good price of AL, then shape it or remove extra material; when it's done you harden it, CF, it weakens has you work it and you lay it up by hand. Laying up CF is like layering cardboard covered in extra thick and sticky honey. On a complex shape (a bicycle frame), You then rely on a balloon inside the tubes to push against the mold to get you that ultimate strength as you cure the resin. The point is, the AL theoretical numbers are WAY closer to what your insurance company will cover you for than what the CF part gets. Interestingly, the CF bike is theoritically the least durable and steel the most, but an old study found a commerical steel bike frame failed first (60k cycles vs 200+ on the jig) because you didn't need to over-build it as the manufacturing process and material durablity was more reliable than AL, Ti, or CF.

CF is only stronger if you need strength in 2 of 3 dimensions. When you need strength in all three directions, a good AL piece can be the same weight as CF. It was pointed out that mass produced CF stems are the same or heavier weight than pretty cleap AL ones. Carbon Fiber is just a really strong string thats only strong in tension, any time it's not in tension you're looking at the resin to do the work - and you're mostly pushing on a bike frame.

There is Carbon Fiber and then there is Carbon Fiber. There is Aluminum and then there is Aluminum. There's a big difference in strength you get out of either material depending on what grade it is and how you use it. You can play with both materials and get a big difference in performance.

AL has a lot of problems too, but in mass production high end AL equals CF in many ways.

regularguy
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:06 pm

by regularguy

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:34 am
The ALR is loosely based on the 2018 Emonda SLR in terms of shape/profile. It was heavier than the 2018 Emonda SL.

The 2021 models gained weight in the name of cable integration and semi-aero tube shapes.

The new ALR will be >100g heavier than the current Emonda SL once built up.
Not to get into a frame-materials debate, but let's assume it's a 100g weight difference between an SL and an ALR with identical builds: if that's true (and I'm sure 100g can be saved somewhere on rider+bike for way less than the $1k difference between SL and ALR framesets), none of us can feel 100g and at that point, is there really any difference between the bikes? As in, are there any other characteristic or intangible benefits of the SL in terms of compliance, power transfer...? The ALR looks to have basically the same aero shapes as the SL (even though Trek just says "sleek"), aluminum can be recycled way easier than carbon, and I'd certanly feel less nervous riding a less expensive bike.

Am I crazy, or does this lightweight AL frame kind of make low/mid grade carbon redundant? Is it just carbon-cool for carbon's sake at this point?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

regularguy wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:01 am

Not to get into a frame-materials debate, but let's assume it's a 100g weight difference between an SL and an ALR with identical builds: if that's true (and I'm sure 100g can be saved somewhere on rider+bike for way less than the $1k difference between SL and ALR framesets), none of us can feel 100g and at that point, is there really any difference between the bikes? As in, are there any other characteristic or intangible benefits of the SL in terms of compliance, power transfer...? The ALR looks to have basically the same aero shapes as the SL (even though Trek just says "sleek"), aluminum can be recycled way easier than carbon, and I'd certanly feel less nervous riding a less expensive bike.

Am I crazy, or does this lightweight AL frame kind of make low/mid grade carbon redundant? Is it just carbon-cool for carbon's sake at this point?

I think carbon/resin composite can still have better high-frequency vibration damping than highly shaped / highly butted alloys, but yes alloy bikes are coming back into their own to some extent. I don't think I would buy an Emonda SL... I'd either pony up for the SLR or save the money and get the ALR.

by Weenie


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BikeTyson
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:16 pm

by BikeTyson

jfranci3 wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:15 am
CF is only stronger if you need strength in 2 of 3 dimensions.
Look at this guy riding his bike in the 4th dimension.

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