Is an aero frame worth it?

[Cemicar]

In reality, it's getting harder to get non-aero bikes from the market. Just like rim brake bikes are dead.

It may be not worth money, but still.

[wheelsONfire]

It's well known an aero frame with disc brake, without some gimmicks will not be as comfortable as a rim brake bike. You need to ask know what the beefed up fork and chainstays does. Weither it's a problem or not, sacrificing comfort, that's another story. Even riders of Pinarello Dogma F say the rim brake version rides better than the disc brake version. Test riders of latest Foil say Addict has a better ride feel. Spesh SL6 rides better than SL7. Ofcourse manufacturers work on getting as close as possible, but you need to have in mind that aero and disc brakes will not be as a rim brake bike.

It certainly require some re-engineering.
Stiffer chainstay, softer seatpost.
Stiffer fork, softer stem/bar/steerer tube.

A brand that use one same fork for all bike sizes despite them having vastly different head tube angle means they pay zero effort to make all bike sizes handle the same (equalize the trail value). They don't even care to make all size handle the same so why would you expect them to equalize the ride between disc and rim version?

SL6 vs SL7 is exactly that case of aero tubes impacting ride quality though. SL6 disc ride smoother than Sl7 disc mostly because of slimmer seatpost, and less aero tubes overall. The SL7 tube is more like slimmed down Venge than Sl6 upgrade.

What i basically try to tell OP, an aero frame inspite of his beliefs of engineers can design a bike stiffer and more compliant and therefor ride same as a rim brake bike is a no not.
That is why fat tires are something the manufacturers try to say, make the disc brake bike ride as good.
I have personally asked techs about this and the reply is, they will not ride the same.
Is it a problem or not? Dooes anyone think a Pinarallo Dogma F look different (disc to rim)? This is a great example and Dogma F rim ride better.
Calling SL7 a true aero bike with noticeable speed gains for a person already slow aka, not on same level with a stronger faster rider.
No - he will not gain the aero effect to such degree he will be as fast as those guys. No way! Check that data of just a change of handlebar vs a frame.
Let me ask, does any normal rider for real say they get as fast as a stronger rider just changing handlebar? Still it suggest it's on same level.
No, a none full blown aero frame vs some half breed will give you extremely small difference only seen if you are fast as hell.
I myself have a buddy using R5 and S5. He is not the fastest, he tells me, all data told him, if i ride S5 then according to data i should fly.
Gaining lots of free watts.
My buddy says he's not even sure he notice any difference. He can't use a normal bike PC and actually see a real difference.
Maybe if you shorten your rides to 40Km and ride as fast as you can for a short distance.
For a longer ride where you can't maintain full effort, i don't think you can notice a significant speed increase.
For me, that would be going 25km/h, with the aero bike you should be at 30km/h for same effort and same position.
If you're riding 30km/h normally, you should be at minimum 35km/h for same position and same effort using the aero bike.
For a normal rider to believe he will be in the same league as those leaving him behind, riding in a group, that is not happening.
Shit, i rode with a old dude on an old steel frame, steel fork and down tube shifters, we rode same speed.
I rode with a guy on Oltre XR4, side to side not like elephants holding tail. We rode same speed.
We both rode same depth wheels, 40-45mms.
Did his Oltre make him freewheel besides me from time to time to keep pace, no way in heaven.
Did i ride with no effort with the steel bike dude, no certainly not.
I have ridden behind cars, tractors, busses yada yada, i honestly ride 15km/h + way more easy than riding 30-33km/h without shielding.
Do i honesly believe any aero bikes would give me same boost as riding behind vehiclescompared to my bike.
Haha, i am not. Maybe if lucky, i can sense something that might be noticeable.
But i can say one thing. Of all bikes i have had and of those i have, i believe the only bike that can be any different is a full blown aero bike.

Madone, S5, new Scott Foil. These bikes are the only bikes that might actually be reasonable to give a shot.
If these prove not, than nothing can do anything for me. That possible difference (full blown aero bike) is the single thing that i honestly can not back away from.
I would need to ride a full blown aero on routes going up and down and offering flat sections in every type of wind.
Only then do i know if a full blown aero bike will give me doubtless free speed.
I should refuse to use power meter or a cycling computer to notice this so clear that i am without doubt.
Otherwise it's never worth buying a new bike at minium 10K Euro (S5 Ultegra Di2)
Looking at a new aero bike with similar components as mine, but a 2023 model and full blown aero, i would land at minium 12K Euro and up up up in price
( Red AXS or DA Di2 + wheels at 2500Euro.)
New Foil RC here over 17000 Euro.
The DA version is about 12000 Euro
S5, i think is 13K Euro +
Madone Red AXS, is also very expensive.

[Lina]

It's well known an aero frame with disc brake, without some gimmicks will not be as comfortable as a rim brake bike. You need to ask know what the beefed up fork and chainstays does. Weither it's a problem or not, sacrificing comfort, that's another story. Even riders of Pinarello Dogma F say the rim brake version rides better than the disc brake version. Test riders of latest Foil say Addict has a better ride feel. Spesh SL6 rides better than SL7. Ofcourse manufacturers work on getting as close as possible, but you need to have in mind that aero and disc brakes will not be as a rim brake bike.

It certainly require some re-engineering.
Stiffer chainstay, softer seatpost.
Stiffer fork, softer stem/bar/steerer tube.

A brand that use one same fork for all bike sizes despite them having vastly different head tube angle means they pay zero effort to make all bike sizes handle the same (equalize the trail value). They don't even care to make all size handle the same so why would you expect them to equalize the ride between disc and rim version?

SL6 vs SL7 is exactly that case of aero tubes impacting ride quality though. SL6 disc ride smoother than Sl7 disc mostly because of slimmer seatpost, and less aero tubes overall. The SL7 tube is more like slimmed down Venge than Sl6 upgrade.

What i basically try to tell OP, an aero frame inspite of his beliefs of engineers can design a bike stiffer and more compliant and therefor ride same as a rim brake bike is a no not.
That is why fat tires are something the manufacturers try to say, make the disc brake bike ride as good.
I have personally asked techs about this and the reply is, they will not ride the same.
Is it a problem or not? Dooes anyone think a Pinarallo Dogma F look different (disc to rim)? This is a great example and Dogma F rim ride better.
Calling SL7 a true aero bike with noticeable speed gains for a person already slow aka, not on same level with a stronger faster rider.
No - he will not gain the aero effect to such degree he will be as fast as those guys. No way! Check that data of just a change of handlebar vs a frame.
Let me ask, does any normal rider for real say they get as fast as a stronger rider just changing handlebar? Still it suggest it's on same level.
No, a none full blown aero frame vs some half breed will give you extremely small difference only seen if you are fast as hell.
I myself have a buddy using R5 and S5. He is not the fastest, he tells me, all data told him, if i ride S5 then according to data i should fly.
Gaining lots of free watts.
My buddy says he's not even sure he notice any difference. He can't use a normal bike PC and actually see a real difference.
Maybe if you shorten your rides to 40Km and ride as fast as you can for a short distance.
For a longer ride where you can't maintain full effort, i don't think you can notice a significant speed increase.
For me, that would be going 25km/h, with the aero bike you should be at 30km/h for same effort and same position.
If you're riding 30km/h normally, you should be at minimum 35km/h for same position and same effort using the aero bike.
For a normal rider to believe he will be in the same league as those leaving him behind, riding in a group, that is not happening.
Shit, i rode with a old dude on an old steel frame, steel fork and down tube shifters, we rode same speed.
I rode with a guy on Oltre XR4, side to side not like elephants holding tail. We rode same speed.
We both rode same depth wheels, 40-45mms.
Did his Oltre make him freewheel besides me from time to time to keep pace, no way in heaven.
Did i ride with no effort with the steel bike dude, no certainly not.
I have ridden behind cars, tractors, busses yada yada, i honestly ride 15km/h + way more easy than riding 30-33km/h without shielding.
Do i honesly believe any aero bikes would give me same boost as riding behind vehiclescompared to my bike.
Haha, i am not. Maybe if lucky, i can sense something that might be noticeable.
But i can say one thing. Of all bikes i have had and of those i have, i believe the only bike that can be any different is a full blown aero bike.

Madone, S5, new Scott Foil. These bikes are the only bikes that might actually be reasonable to give a shot.
If these prove not, than nothing can do anything for me. That possible difference (full blown aero bike) is the single thing that i honestly can not back away from.
I would need to ride a full blown aero on routes going up and down and offering flat sections in every type of wind.
Only then do i know if a full blown aero bike will give me doubtless free speed.
I should refuse to use power meter or a cycling computer to notice this so clear that i am without doubt.
Otherwise it's never worth buying a new bike at minium 10K Euro (S5 Ultegra Di2)
Looking at a new aero bike with similar components as mine, but a 2023 model and full blown aero, i would land at minium 12K Euro and up up up in price
( Red AXS or DA Di2 + wheels at 2500Euro.)
New Foil RC here over 17000 Euro.
The DA version is about 12000 Euro
S5, i think is 13K Euro +
Madone Red AXS, is also very expensive.

I don't think anyone is claiming an aero frame will give you 5 km/h of free speed. That's absurd to claim. But it will give you some free speed. Will it make you automatically drop anyone on a non aero frame? No, but you'll save some watts compared to them.

And the price comparison is only relevant if you're comparing to an existing bike. If you're buying a new bike anyway the difference between aero and non aero bikes is minimal. New Aethos and Tarmac are the same amount of money. It's the same with all manufacturers, the savings of choosing a non aero frame are minimal if there are any.

[wheelsONfire]

It's well known an aero frame with disc brake, without some gimmicks will not be as comfortable as a rim brake bike. You need to ask know what the beefed up fork and chainstays does. Weither it's a problem or not, sacrificing comfort, that's another story. Even riders of Pinarello Dogma F say the rim brake version rides better than the disc brake version. Test riders of latest Foil say Addict has a better ride feel. Spesh SL6 rides better than SL7. Ofcourse manufacturers work on getting as close as possible, but you need to have in mind that aero and disc brakes will not be as a rim brake bike.

It certainly require some re-engineering.
Stiffer chainstay, softer seatpost.
Stiffer fork, softer stem/bar/steerer tube.

A brand that use one same fork for all bike sizes despite them having vastly different head tube angle means they pay zero effort to make all bike sizes handle the same (equalize the trail value). They don't even care to make all size handle the same so why would you expect them to equalize the ride between disc and rim version?

SL6 vs SL7 is exactly that case of aero tubes impacting ride quality though. SL6 disc ride smoother than Sl7 disc mostly because of slimmer seatpost, and less aero tubes overall. The SL7 tube is more like slimmed down Venge than Sl6 upgrade.

What i basically try to tell OP, an aero frame inspite of his beliefs of engineers can design a bike stiffer and more compliant and therefor ride same as a rim brake bike is a no not.
That is why fat tires are something the manufacturers try to say, make the disc brake bike ride as good.
I have personally asked techs about this and the reply is, they will not ride the same.
Is it a problem or not? Dooes anyone think a Pinarallo Dogma F look different (disc to rim)? This is a great example and Dogma F rim ride better.
Calling SL7 a true aero bike with noticeable speed gains for a person already slow aka, not on same level with a stronger faster rider.
No - he will not gain the aero effect to such degree he will be as fast as those guys. No way! Check that data of just a change of handlebar vs a frame.
Let me ask, does any normal rider for real say they get as fast as a stronger rider just changing handlebar? Still it suggest it's on same level.
No, a none full blown aero frame vs some half breed will give you extremely small difference only seen if you are fast as hell.
I myself have a buddy using R5 and S5. He is not the fastest, he tells me, all data told him, if i ride S5 then according to data i should fly.
Gaining lots of free watts.
My buddy says he's not even sure he notice any difference. He can't use a normal bike PC and actually see a real difference.
Maybe if you shorten your rides to 40Km and ride as fast as you can for a short distance.
For a longer ride where you can't maintain full effort, i don't think you can notice a significant speed increase.
For me, that would be going 25km/h, with the aero bike you should be at 30km/h for same effort and same position.
If you're riding 30km/h normally, you should be at minimum 35km/h for same position and same effort using the aero bike.
For a normal rider to believe he will be in the same league as those leaving him behind, riding in a group, that is not happening.
Shit, i rode with a old dude on an old steel frame, steel fork and down tube shifters, we rode same speed.
I rode with a guy on Oltre XR4, side to side not like elephants holding tail. We rode same speed.
We both rode same depth wheels, 40-45mms.
Did his Oltre make him freewheel besides me from time to time to keep pace, no way in heaven.
Did i ride with no effort with the steel bike dude, no certainly not.
I have ridden behind cars, tractors, busses yada yada, i honestly ride 15km/h + way more easy than riding 30-33km/h without shielding.
Do i honesly believe any aero bikes would give me same boost as riding behind vehiclescompared to my bike.
Haha, i am not. Maybe if lucky, i can sense something that might be noticeable.
But i can say one thing. Of all bikes i have had and of those i have, i believe the only bike that can be any different is a full blown aero bike.

Madone, S5, new Scott Foil. These bikes are the only bikes that might actually be reasonable to give a shot.
If these prove not, than nothing can do anything for me. That possible difference (full blown aero bike) is the single thing that i honestly can not back away from.
I would need to ride a full blown aero on routes going up and down and offering flat sections in every type of wind.
Only then do i know if a full blown aero bike will give me doubtless free speed.
I should refuse to use power meter or a cycling computer to notice this so clear that i am without doubt.
Otherwise it's never worth buying a new bike at minium 10K Euro (S5 Ultegra Di2)
Looking at a new aero bike with similar components as mine, but a 2023 model and full blown aero, i would land at minium 12K Euro and up up up in price
( Red AXS or DA Di2 + wheels at 2500Euro.)
New Foil RC here over 17000 Euro.
The DA version is about 12000 Euro
S5, i think is 13K Euro +
Madone Red AXS, is also very expensive.

I don't think anyone is claiming an aero frame will give you 5 km/h of free speed. That's absurd to claim. But it will give you some free speed. Will it make you automatically drop anyone on a non aero frame? No, but you'll save some watts compared to them.

And the price comparison is only relevant if you're comparing to an existing bike. If you're buying a new bike anyway the difference between aero and non aero bikes is minimal. New Aethos and Tarmac are the same amount of money. It's the same with all manufacturers, the savings of choosing a non aero frame are minimal if there are any.

So, what would be reason for OP to invest in an aero frame over what he got?
Or anyone having an Aethos investing in an SL7 dreamin of a benefical gain?
What would be anyones gain stripping a bike like SL6 towards a D5, disc brakes?
4-7K Euro for the idea of disc brakes? Isn't that what we discuss?
Rim, disc and aero aswell as comfort / ride feel.
I think, we need to realize, you can't have the best from all key areas. We need to realize you sell out to one aspect to gain from another.
But does this gain really give that boost in any sense justifying to expense?
I think so, if i fart money.

[Roadrocket]

I think it´s mostly about what OP wants, not what he need (or what will speed him up).
Benefits will be likely most significant in the head. You ride fast when you are sure you ride fast (aero) bike.

[maxim809]

I think I got WWism out of my system... After all that would an aero frame (which will prob require going disc) be worth it?

Do it.

Watt/Aero weenie is a whole project in itself. Much of it is learning about very specific scenarios as they apply to you. And prying apart what's real vs half-truths vs misinformation vs special exceptions. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but there's tons to learn and it can keep you busy for years.

The knowledge you gain is arguably worth far more than the speed. The speed is a very nice bonus.

[FatLadAtTheBack]

I think I got WWism out of my system... After all that would an aero frame (which will prob require going disc) be worth it?

Do it.

Watt/Aero weenie is a whole project in itself. Much of it is learning about very specific scenarios as they apply to you. And prying apart what's real vs half-truths vs misinformation vs special exceptions. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but there's tons to learn and it can keep you busy for years.

The knowledge you gain is arguably worth far more than the speed. The speed is a very nice bonus.

What resources do you recommend?

[Nickldn]

I really don't understand why we are having an argument about the benefit of aero frames again. Didn't we have a very similar discussion recently?

My view remains the same. Deep wheels and aero bars will start giving you some free watts above 18-20mph. The SL7 is more efficient above this speed than for example a SL6 with round bars and shallower wheels. If you don't spend much of your time riding above 18-20mph you will not benefit from deep wheels and aero bars, or indeed a SL7. The frame makes a relatively small contribution, maybe 5-6 watts at 20mph, maybe less. Good aero wheels, bars and clothing are the way to go.

A full aero system bike like the SystemSix and S5 will give more free watts than a SL7 type bike only once above c. 25mph and preferably at about 30mph. If you don't spend much of your time riding above 25mph you will not benefit from an full aero system bike. In fact it may be slower due to the added weight.

If you don't believe me, check out Aerocoach. They do their aero related testing at 45kph (27.7mph) and say the reason is the 'resolution' is too low at slower speeds to get reliable readings. This really means that aero gains are too low to measure at say 20mph.

Finally, consider air resistance increases at the square of speed. So it takes 2.25 as much watts to overcome air resistance at 30mph, compared to 20mph. Other forces, like tyre rolling resistance increase more in line with speed. This is why aero is so important, but only if you go fast.

[maxim809]

What resources do you recommend?

Start with this video:
viewtopic.php?p=1605704#p1605704

This can branch off into multiple deeper topics. I found that at the end of every path is bike-fit philosophy, which is a whole topic in itself.

But for now just start with that video. There's a transcription for those who just wanna skim quickly as well.

[wheelsONfire]

Best would be test riding. Then there's no way to get to caught up in reading data. It doesn't mean shit if your own experience is blah!
Worst case scenarios you end up with a serious expense and regrets.
Here it's more or less impossible to have a chance to truely test ride a bike. They offered me to take a spin at a too small bike on a parking lot.
WTF stupidity is that!?

[maxim809]

I really don't understand why we are having an argument about the benefit of aero frames again. Didn't we have a very similar discussion recently?

For sure, this convo comes up often. It's tough to expect anyone to dig thru 300 pages.

My view remains the same. Deep wheels and aero bars will start giving you some free watts above 18-20mph. ... Good aero wheels, bars and clothing are the way to go.

Yes the clothing is big. Especially if starting from club fit.

The most rewarding thing about aero is it's rider-focused first.

Finally, consider air resistance increases at the square of speed. So it takes 2.25 as much watts to overcome air resistance at 30mph, compared to 20mph. Other forces, like tyre rolling resistance increase more in line with speed. This is why aero is so important, but only if you go fast.

Ya it's around +17mph on a road bike where aero gains really start to overtake the rolling resistance gains on okay roads.

But anyone who is inclined whether fast or slow, can still optimize aspects of their equipment, their position, their training and nutrition, in a non-mutually exclusive way.

[maxim809]

Worst case scenarios you end up with a serious expense and regrets.

Funny, I'd say the worst case scenario is living with falsehoods because Stockholm syndrome.

The truth may sting more, but it's actually a better case. I guess regret is a relative perspective.

[wheelsONfire]

Does that mean my buddy with R5 and S5 is off? Funny, years ago we always rode together and i never could tell if he gained or not.
I stated above about him. This video again says nothing about real riding experience. If my buddy who rides 25km/h( aero bike) and i ride 30km/h (none aero bike), how slow would i need to ride for him to hold same speed?
In theory, if he's at 25km/h for given wattage input (none aero bike), how fast would he be on his aero bike?
Because me on my bike at 30km/h (still no aero bike), i would still need to slow down, so where do we end up?
26km/h, 27, 28 or?

[Nickldn]

Does that mean my buddy with R5 and S5 is off? Funny, years ago we always rode together and i never could tell if he gained or not.
I stated above about him. This video again says nothing about real riding experience. If my buddy who rides 25km/h( aero bike) and i ride 30km/h (none aero bike), how slow would i need to ride for him to hold same speed?
In theory, if he's at 25km/h for given wattage input (none aero bike), how fast would he be on his aero bike?
Because me on my bike at 30km/h (still no aero bike), i would still need to slow down, so where do we end up?
26km/h, 27, 28 or?

Sadly at 25-27km/h I doubt there's much aero gain from a R5. Maybe a dozen watts at most, but that could be optimistic. Now double that riding speed and you're talking serious gains, maybe 50-60 watts advantage over a classic round tubed bike with no aero parts.

Like maxim says, riding position is key. You may well be better positioned than your comparator, so catch less wind (superman riding position?.)

[AW84]

I'm sure someone will jump in and fight me, but I have never, ever seen anyone buy an aero frame and actually be faster. They'll say it's faster, as all of us do when we have to mentally justify something we just invested in and want to believe is going to benefit us, but the ride data never proves it, and they're never suddenly able to do something out on the road they couldn't do before. From crits to time trials (which don't lie, btw), the ability of said rider never changes bike to bike. I've bought aero wheels, aero frames, handlebars, etc. and none of it made me faster. Like everyone else, though, I did go out on the first ride with said purchases and ride my nose into the dirt trying to prove to myself it was worth it, but in the end, it was just vanity. Race tires, a proper tune-up top to bottom, quality bearings throughout, a good position, and tight-clothing is what mechanically differentiates speeds among riders. The other 99.5% is fitness.