Ditching the aero bike

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

TriJoeri
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:28 am

by TriJoeri

Hi all,

So I'm having a bit of doubt on what to do..

In September 2019 I bought a MY19 Cannondale Systemsix Ultegra, the green one, with a big discount (payed 2.5k instead of 4k) because they were clearing out stock for the new 2020 colors. I swapped the Fulcrum DB400 wheels for Reynolds Assault SLG 62mm wheels from a guy with a new Aeroad who thought they were too tall, changed the BB to a BBInfinite one piece BB and changed out the Cannondale SiSl crank for an Ultegra R8000 52/36 crank, rerouted all the cables through the headtube,..

Very fast bike, have loved every minute I rode on it even though it might be a slightly harsh ride from time to time. It does very well at the draft-legal triathlons I do, some crit racing or Merckx style TT's and around where I live it's mostly flat (except for longer rides (>=3h) when I can venture into the Ardennes or onto the Amstel Gold parcours).

This year I got the itch to do some Gran Fondo's since my biking is my relative strength in triathlon (66kg, >300W FTP) and whilst being in the Alps and the Ventoux area for 10 days during my holiday, I did wonder how much a lighter bike would benefit me in this case.. My Systemsix is by no means a light bike, I believe I've weighed it before at 9.2-9.3kg with bottle cages, saddle bag and Favero Assioma pedals..

Someone has offered me 3k for the Systemsix, which would mean I almost get everything I put in the bike back,which makes it very tempting to sell.. There are 2 bikes that have tickled my interest, which are the new Giant Propel Advanced which has not been released yet, we know nothing about pricing yet so not sure what to expect here (5.5-6k with 105Di2?).
Or at a dealership, there's a 500km old Factor 02 VAM disc for sale, Force AXS with powermeter, ZIPP 303S, Black Inc bar stem (which I have to swap out, bars are too wide and stem too short), Ceramic Speed bearings,.. for 6k which only weighs 7kg the way it's currently set up.

No doubt the Cannondale is the quicker bike on my usual routes, as well as a better crit/draft legal triathlon bike.. I could buy a 1250g wheelset instead of the 1750g Reynolds wheels and so on to try to make it lighter so it would be competitive in Gran Fondo's?
I tried to find the Tourmagazine aero test results for the 02 VAM but even with the way it's setup, I'd be loosing out on 10-15W easily?

The Seka Exceed RDC also seems interesting at a similar pricepoint for the frame, buying some wheels and a groupset and might be a good mix of aero and light?

So options are:
-Keep Systemsix, buy lighter wheelset, through axles and some other parts to be more competitive on longer climbs
-Buy Factor O2 VAM disc from dealer but loose out on speed on the flats
-Wait until more info on the new Propel is released, possibly lose out on someone offering this amount of money for my Systemsix
-Build a Seka Exceed RDC for a similar amount of money which could be a good mix of speed and lightness

Hexsense
Posts: 2797
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: Louisiana, USA

by Hexsense

just shred weight on Systemsix. Frameset weight aren't that heavy, you gain at most half kg on the frameset versus light weight all round bike.
The fact that it's 9kg+ means some other components are really heavy. If you sell that bike at 3k used in this market, you'd have to spend 5k+ to get something better new.

Bar/stem and wheels are obvious placed to start.
Also, switch levered axle to leverless axle that come with Cannondale SuperSix /Topstone.
Last edited by Hexsense on Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


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req110
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Prague, Czechia

by req110

Aero is new lightweight, but not when your aerobike is 9.3kg...

But 5W saving behaves like 1kg they say.

My former systemSix HM 56cm on 11s red etap, knot cockpit, SI cranks with power2max, knot64 wheelset with gp5ktl 28 was 7.99 kg.
There are some people with 7.2kg systemsix, it is possible by

- cockpit farsports f1 (-280g)
- replacing ultegra with dura ace (ideally di2, especially on aerobikes the mechanical gruppos look weird)
- replacing wheelset and tires
- using tubolito or light tubeless tires

You have to keep in mind that what comes up must go down, so lot of seconds you gain on climb, you will lose on descent or flats very quickly

Ad your bikes:

1) factor o2 vam > i don't believe it weight 7kg on force axs with quarq and zipp 303s. I totally don't believe that. If yes, it must be without pedals, bartape, cages, etc.

My second problem is built quaility. People here are complaining on carbon layoup quality especially bubbles you see when you cut the fork. I saw that on like 2 bike build videos on youtube.

2) Propel > this prople looks acceptable, but some pro's were using that this season and was above 8kg

3) Seka Exceed RDC > there is some hype on this side, but being from china, i can't support that! I am glad my bikes are made in taiwan. (ROC)

You can purchase Cannondale SuperSix Evo HM frameset, which is very often a bargain and you can get it at 2600 USD or so... But you will save only like 300g on frameset, so moving your parts and wheelset is not gonna help you. You have to sell bike and start from scratch.

Supersix evo (despite poor manufacturing chinese quality) is one of the more aerodynamic lightweight bikes.

edited by mods for racist comments. next one will be a permanent ban. Just say china w/o prefix, and keep politics out of it thanks.
S-Works SL7 Dusty Blue 56cm @ Sram RED AXS Quarq & ZIPP 404 Firecrest (7.2kg)
S-Works Epic 2022 Gloss Fluid L @ Sram XX1 AXS Quarq & Berg Ratheberg & BikeYoke Divine SL (9.9kg)

StiffWeenies
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:39 pm

by StiffWeenies

Your SystemSix is one of the stiffest frames on the market. The O2 VAM is considered by some to be flexy. Have you given the Factor a test ride yet?

Echoing Hexsense, wheels and cockpit are the two most straightforward places to shed weight. Easy 400-500g combined savings right there assuming you're on the KNOT cockpit. Check out this SystemSix build using an adapted Seka cockpit for inspiration.

Regarding the Exceed, are you currently running your SystemSix slammed? it might be difficult to achieve an equally aggressive fit with the more relaxed geo.
Last edited by StiffWeenies on Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:47 am, edited 4 times in total.

StiffWeenies
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:39 pm

by StiffWeenies

req110 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:10 am
3) Seka Exceed RDC > there is some hype on this side, but being from china, i can't support that! I am glad my bikes are made in taiwan. (ROC)

You can purchase Cannondale SuperSix Evo HM frameset, which is very often a bargain and you can get it at 2600 USD or so... But you will save only like 300g on frameset, so moving your parts and wheelset is not gonna help you. You have to sell bike and start from scratch.

Supersix evo (despite poor manufacturing chinese quality) is one of the more aerodynamic lightweight bikes.
Sorry to break it to you but your SL7 was only painted in Taiwan! Carbon layup and baking all done in China. Cannondales on the other hand are laid-up and baked in Taiwan IIRC.

robeambro
Posts: 1510
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Changing the components that make the SystemSix one of the fastest bikes out there (eg cockpit) seems rather counterintuitive. Likewise, choosing tyres and tubes based on weight rather than rolling resistance is another sureproof way to be slower, regardless of the parcours.

Perhaps OP can provide a build list which would make it easier to figure out where to shed weight without sacrificing aero or rolling resistance.

req110
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Prague, Czechia

by req110

StiffWeenies wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:27 am
req110 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:10 am
3) Seka Exceed RDC > there is some hype on this side, but being from china, i can't support that! I am glad my bikes are made in taiwan. (ROC)

You can purchase Cannondale SuperSix Evo HM frameset, which is very often a bargain and you can get it at 2600 USD or so... But you will save only like 300g on frameset, so moving your parts and wheelset is not gonna help you. You have to sell bike and start from scratch.

Supersix evo (despite poor manufacturing chinese quality) is one of the more aerodynamic lightweight bikes.
Sorry to break it to you but your SL7 was only painted in Taiwan! Carbon layup and baking all done in China. Cannondales on the other hand are laid-up and baked in Taiwan IIRC.
I have to study the sl7 but supersix evo has huge proud sticker "MADE IN CHINA".
And Seka is Shanghai (PRC) based company. So all your money goes there.

Unlike cannondale, where it's subcontract.
Last edited by req110 on Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
S-Works SL7 Dusty Blue 56cm @ Sram RED AXS Quarq & ZIPP 404 Firecrest (7.2kg)
S-Works Epic 2022 Gloss Fluid L @ Sram XX1 AXS Quarq & Berg Ratheberg & BikeYoke Divine SL (9.9kg)

BigBoyND
Posts: 730
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 1:51 am
Location: Berlin, DE

by BigBoyND

If you care about weight, why did you swap one of the lightest cranksets available (SiSL) for something heavier?

If you're smart about components, you can get down to 7.5kg without anything exotic or expensive.
2019 Spec Venge 58cm 6.9kg
- R9270/R8170, Quarq, i9.65
2021 Canyon Speedmax Disc CF8 XL heavy
- R8000, P2M, SwissSide 80 + Citec Disc

Retired:
2020 Pina Prince 59.5cm 7.4kg
2017 Cervélo P5 58cm heavy

TriJoeri
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:28 am

by TriJoeri

Thanks for all the suggestions! I was toying with the idea of changing out the wheelset for when I want to do more climbing. Changing the thru axles for the Robert Axle Project ones was already on the list. Is the Segeyi CND-TH1 derailleur hanger worthwile?

Cannondale Systemsix 2019 size 51
Deda Zero 100 120mm stem
Vision Metron 4D handlebars 380mm
Steerer cut
One 12.5mm spacer and the top one that nicely transitions to the stem
BBInfinite one piece BB with steel bearings
Shimano Ultegra R8000 hollowtech 170mm crank with 52/36 chain rings
KMC X11EL-TiN chain
SRAM PG1170 11-26 cassette (11-32 for when I do some climbing)
Shimano Ultegra R8020 shifters, derailleurs (long cage rear),calipers,..
Not sure about the type of brake discs, not the SM RT-800 ones but they're 160mm in the front and 140mm in the rear, centerlock
Favero Assioma Duo pedals (not replacing these for a crank one or so even if that's lighter, I swap these between road bike and TT)
Fizik Vento Microtex 2mm handle bar tape
K-Edge Race lightweight Garmin mount
Prologo Dimension 143 saddle
Reynolds Strike SLG 62mm wheels, Schwalbe wheel tape, 25mm GP5000 clinchers with Conti Race inner tubes
Stock thru axles with levers
Van Rysel 900 bottle holders from the Decathlon which are 25g each

TriJoeri
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:28 am

by TriJoeri

BigBoyND wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:44 am
If you care about weight, why did you swap one of the lightest cranksets available (SiSL) for something heavier?

If you're smart about components, you can get down to 7.5kg without anything exotic or expensive.
After 300km already I got terrible bottom bracket creaking and I could already see and feel traces of the bearings on the aluminium axle, so I then decided to go for a 24mm bottom bracket and a regular Ultegra crank.. And I didn't like the look of the SiSl crank to be honest, looks good on a climbing bike but not on an aero bike.. But you're right, would have saved some weight there as well, I just didn't care that much back then.

BigBoyND
Posts: 730
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 1:51 am
Location: Berlin, DE

by BigBoyND

This is my build list for a 6.9kg Non-SW 58cm Venge. Beside the obvious (handlebars, saddle, crankset, cassette, and wheels) there are lots of small places where you can save 50-100g and they add up quickly. Bar tape, compression plug, disc rotors, inner tubes, tires etc.

The chain you have is made for e-bikes. The SL version weighs less and I think the price is the same.
Attachments
SmartSelect_20220604-131314_OneDrive.jpg
2019 Spec Venge 58cm 6.9kg
- R9270/R8170, Quarq, i9.65
2021 Canyon Speedmax Disc CF8 XL heavy
- R8000, P2M, SwissSide 80 + Citec Disc

Retired:
2020 Pina Prince 59.5cm 7.4kg
2017 Cervélo P5 58cm heavy

spartacus
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

I'm not convinced taking 1kg off the bike is going to help your results in any meaningful way. If anything id get a second set of wheels for days with lots of climbing. That said the bike is really heavy.

StiffWeenies
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:39 pm

by StiffWeenies

TriJoeri wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:41 am
Thanks for all the suggestions! I was toying with the idea of changing out the wheelset for when I want to do more climbing. Changing the thru axles for the Robert Axle Project ones was already on the list. Is the Segeyi CND-TH1 derailleur hanger worthwile?

Cannondale Systemsix 2019 size 51
Deda Zero 100 120mm stem
Vision Metron 4D handlebars 380mm
Steerer cut
One 12.5mm spacer and the top one that nicely transitions to the stem
BBInfinite one piece BB with steel bearings
Shimano Ultegra R8000 hollowtech 170mm crank with 52/36 chain rings
KMC X11EL-TiN chain
SRAM PG1170 11-26 cassette (11-32 for when I do some climbing)
Shimano Ultegra R8020 shifters, derailleurs (long cage rear),calipers,..
Not sure about the type of brake discs, not the SM RT-800 ones but they're 160mm in the front and 140mm in the rear, centerlock
Favero Assioma Duo pedals (not replacing these for a crank one or so even if that's lighter, I swap these between road bike and TT)
Fizik Vento Microtex 2mm handle bar tape
K-Edge Race lightweight Garmin mount
Prologo Dimension 143 saddle
Reynolds Strike SLG 62mm wheels, Schwalbe wheel tape, 25mm GP5000 clinchers with Conti Race inner tubes
Stock thru axles with levers
Van Rysel 900 bottle holders from the Decathlon which are 25g each
Did you use the Soigneur kit when you redid the cables? I personally try to use DM hangers wherever I can because it makes the shifting a bit better but it's not a night and day difference.

Stueys
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:12 pm

by Stueys

TriJoeri wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:44 am
BigBoyND wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:44 am
If you care about weight, why did you swap one of the lightest cranksets available (SiSL) for something heavier?

If you're smart about components, you can get down to 7.5kg without anything exotic or expensive.
After 300km already I got terrible bottom bracket creaking and I could already see and feel traces of the bearings on the aluminium axle, so I then decided to go for a 24mm bottom bracket and a regular Ultegra crank.. And I didn't like the look of the SiSl crank to be honest, looks good on a climbing bike but not on an aero bike.. But you're right, would have saved some weight there as well, I just didn't care that much back then.
That's the infamous Dale BB tolerances in action, the BBInfinite you put in at the same time would more than likely have solved that. I put one into my Evo when I built the frameset up from new.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
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req110
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 am
Location: Prague, Czechia

by req110

Reminds me that every single SI or SISL crankset i got hands on, had traces of bearings on them. :D
S-Works SL7 Dusty Blue 56cm @ Sram RED AXS Quarq & ZIPP 404 Firecrest (7.2kg)
S-Works Epic 2022 Gloss Fluid L @ Sram XX1 AXS Quarq & Berg Ratheberg & BikeYoke Divine SL (9.9kg)

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