Actually, I find that companies should not be required to disclaim this information. It is profoundly discriminatory and promotes stereotypes that, I think, should not be promoted. It is the brands responsability to own their QC and brand value irrespective of where they produce their products.wheelsONfire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:31 pmThis model isn't made in the USA. It's just the custom version (if it matters to whom ever wish to buy it)
Enve Melee
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First it’s a law requirement and even if it has flaws, as a citizen I do want to know where my money is going. Then I not just want to know where it’s made overall but the different steps (welding / stratification or just paint/assembly).pmprego wrote:Actually, I find that companies should not be required to disclaim this information. It is profoundly discriminatory and promotes stereotypes that, I think, should not be promoted. It is the brands responsability to own their QC and brand value irrespective of where they produce their products.wheelsONfire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:31 pmThis model isn't made in the USA. It's just the custom version (if it matters to whom ever wish to buy it)
Back to Enve who used to claim how proud they were about they made in the USA, their now made in the Far East hasn’t shown any price drop so that would be a no-no for me, not at this price.
Once upon a time there were laws forbidding people of color from voting. The "it's a law" argument it is not really that strong of an argument.C36 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:34 pmFirst it’s a law requirement and even if it has flaws, as a citizen I do want to know where my money is going. Then I not just want to know where it’s made overall but the different steps (welding / stratification or just paint/assembly).pmprego wrote:Actually, I find that companies should not be required to disclaim this information. It is profoundly discriminatory and promotes stereotypes that, I think, should not be promoted. It is the brands responsability to own their QC and brand value irrespective of where they produce their products.wheelsONfire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:31 pmThis model isn't made in the USA. It's just the custom version (if it matters to whom ever wish to buy it)
Back to Enve who used to claim how proud they were about they made in the USA, their now made in the Far East hasn’t shown any price drop so that would be a no-no for me, not at this price.
Beyond the basic requirements for international trade and commerce to function, place of origin declaration guarantees authenticity for many products. The consumer deserves the right to decide what regions are good at making what products and choose accordingly. It's a rather dark perspective to see place of origin as fostering stereotypes, racism etc. Racists will do what racists do regardless of trade regulations. On the contrary I argue that place of origin can promote competition and local economic development - also good for the consumer. There are corporate brands but there are also country brands and both are the responsibility of the owners. None of this excuses Enve from deceptive marketing.
Still, for those who have doubts that it as a problem, here is an extraordinary example of place of origin fostering extreme racism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96iJsdGkl44
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.
@pmprego, while I share and appreciate completely your warm sentiments toward greater harmony among peoples of this planet, it really is just a business issue. Cultures are all different, and while some have "grown up" with industrialization and modern manufacturing, many evolved well before, and it would be naive to assume that all are equally capable in this arena. Even communication style (which varies dramatically between cultures) can be a source of advantage or disadvantage. Consider a very simple example: some cultures prioritize seniority over merit. Imagine what that does to the ability of younger workers to introduce advances or even speak up in the work place. The impact of this on the innovativeness and global competitiveness of a company can be profound. (While it's fair to argue that products should be judged on their physicall merits alone, it's easy to see how the chauvanism around products of certain regions arises.) This issue has been studied relentlessly for decades. You can start with the epic research work of Geert Hofstede if you are curious.
As to the Enve frame, can't really say if it would be better if produced in USA, but I know one thing - even fewer of us would be able to afford it. No reason to read any more into it than that.
As to the Enve frame, can't really say if it would be better if produced in USA, but I know one thing - even fewer of us would be able to afford it. No reason to read any more into it than that.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.
100% agreeMr.Gib wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:05 pm@pmprego, while I share and appreciate completely your warm sentiments toward greater harmony among peoples of this planet, it really is just a business issue. Cultures are all different, and while some have "grown up" with industrialization and modern manufacturing, many evolved well before, and it would be naive to assume that all are equally capable in this arena. Even communication style (which varies dramatically between cultures) can be a source of advantage or disadvantage. Consider a very simple example: some cultures prioritize seniority over merit. Imagine what that does to the ability of younger workers to introduce advances or even speak up in the work place. The impact of this on the innovativeness and global competitiveness of a company can be profound. (While it's fair to argue that products should be judged on their physicall merits alone, it's easy to see how the chauvanism around products of certain regions arises.) This issue has been studied relentlessly for decades. You can start with the epic research work of Geert Hofstede if you are curious.
As to the Enve frame, can't really say if it would be better if produced in USA, but I know one thing - even fewer of us would be able to afford it. No reason to read any more into it than that.
My example: my Parlee Z5i is 90% of my Parlee Z0... the Z0 frame is alot more expensive then z5i. I'm sure Melee vs enve custom is the same deal.
2024 BMC TeamMachine R Building
2018 BMC TImeMachine Road
2002 Moots Compact-SL- getting aero look makeover
2019 Parlee Z0XD - "classified"
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2018 BMC TImeMachine Road
2002 Moots Compact-SL- getting aero look makeover
2019 Parlee Z0XD - "classified"
2023 Pivot E-Vault - completed project, full Xplr package
Consumers have different priorities. If something is made in country A, which has better environmental and labor standards than country B, then I prefer country A. It's a spectrum too. If you live in the US then perhaps minimizing negative factors means US>Europe>Taiwan>XYZ, with raw materials sourced from those places in that order. If the KKK made the best bikes in the world, charged very little, and used the money to drive their agenda, I'd hope most people would at least consider buying something else. Now extend that logic to drawing the line a little further out.
Some share of an item's components are always going to be problematic (even more for stuff like phones and electric cars), but you can choose the lesser evil.
I look at origin for every product I buy and it plays a big role in my buying decisions. In many cases it means I just won't buy any of the options, or I buy something from a company I've never heard of before.
I get the gravel, really gravel bike. I don't see the other two happening. Doesn't make much sense from a business point of view. Besides... 2023 recession. Doesn't seem a good time to be increasing cost structure. But maybe enve customers are totally unaffected by economic cycle (I highly doubt it).
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The requirement to declare place of manufacture is not just about transparency but about combating dishonesty. You seem to be implying that if companies don't have to declare the place of manufacture then they will be silent about it and the issue goes away. Nothing could be further from the truth.pmprego wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:27 pmActually, I find that companies should not be required to disclaim this information. It is profoundly discriminatory and promotes stereotypes that, I think, should not be promoted. It is the brands responsability to own their QC and brand value irrespective of where they produce their products.wheelsONfire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:31 pmThis model isn't made in the USA. It's just the custom version (if it matters to whom ever wish to buy it)
If there are no regulations regarding stated place of origin then many companies will explicitly lie about it. If they're not allowed to lie but don't have to declare the truth, many companies will skirt the line of very strongly suggesting their products are made somewhere they're not. When unscrupulous companies can do this without also needing to state the truth then it is in their interest to foster more jingoism and xenophobia around place of origin. When companies have to state the truth about place of origin they have less motivation to tell you hide places are inferior.