About Cervelo S5 2023

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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

^ yeah I'm ok with that. My BMC stem is Al and is 200+g , so I'm sure the V is hefty. At least I have faith Darimo will do a seat post for the S5. Actually I'm interested in what BMC does next, but I have no ideal on their timeline.
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cajer
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by cajer

Hylix does a seat post for the s5. It saves around 80g and is allot cheaper than darimo

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

cajer wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:28 am
Hylix does a seat post for the s5. It saves around 80g and is allot cheaper than darimo
yes I am aware.. so if the frame is 9xxg I have hope for a 7.2ish bike with ww parts and cutting edge aero. I am alright with that. That's why I am curious on frame weight.
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Stendhal
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by Stendhal

spdntrxi wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:03 pm
cajer wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:28 am
Hylix does a seat post for the s5. It saves around 80g and is allot cheaper than darimo
yes I am aware.. so if the frame is 9xxg I have hope for a 7.2ish bike with ww parts and cutting edge aero. I am alright with that. That's why I am curious on frame weight.

I like trying to figure out bike weights for projects. As we have a real life data point for the new S5 — 8.47 kg size 58 Ultegra with .284g pedals — and a spec sheet, we can work from that. The beauty of this exercise is that at a given bike size, it controls for frame, stem, handlebar, and fork weight.

I’ll subtract the pedals for this exercise understanding that in the real world you have to put them back in. So it’s 8.19 kg. (I’ll use some rounding here, normally I do this on a spreadsheet.)

Can you get an S5 to the 7.2 kg-ish target?

In this task you look to where weight can be removed. My answer is “yes but at what cost – low profile rims or ridiculously expensive wheels?”

SADDLE. The spec saddle is a Selle Italia Novus Boost Evo Superflow Ti = 246g per the SI website, 247.2g per Bike Radar. The list price is $79, reflecting the long-standing Cervelo practice of under-specking bikes because, I think, it knows riders will have their own preferences. Obvious weight savings are available here depending on how radical you want to be. The Cadex Boost and SWorks Power Arc models (same snubby length) I use on my two bikes are both around .14 kg, I’ve never tried more radical saddles such as a Tune or Darimo (for one thing I’m too big). Let’s assume a rider more radical than me and a .1 kg saddle for a .14 weight savings, 8.09 total. (Add .04 back if using a not radical saddle such as the Cadex.)

TIRES. The spec tires are Vittoria Corsa TLR G 28 = 315 g per Bike Radar. Obviously heavy, although I’d bet many riders would insist on their favorite but heavier tire brand. Setting aside lightweight but low use tire models, Goodyear Eagle F1s (highly recommended) are 235g at size 28 per its website and in my experience lighter in real life. (NB I don’t have tubeless experience nor is the S5 specced as pure tubeless; adjust if you use tubeless and know more about them than I do which is “very little”.) That’s a savings of .16 kg, getting us down to 7.93 kg.

TUBES: Now comes a subtle savings I recently discovered: TPU tubes. Surely they are not used in the spec. I just recently Tubalitos at about .032, they look suspect to me personally compared to the Pirellis TPUs on my other bike at 0.35 with a much thicker appearance. The spec tubes are a black box, surely at least .1 each (does anyone know?). Using Pirellis that is a .13 kg savings at a relatively low cost, getting us to 7.80 kg.

SEATPOST: Per the above there’s a .08 or so available savings in the seatpost, taking us down to 7.72 kg.

DRIVETRAIN: We’re running out of savings places, the next is the drivetrain. I’ll set aside truly weight weenie parts such as Claviculas (you can put them in the mix for your build if you want) and stick with stock lines. I’m not a Shimano rider but DuraAce 12 is the low end on the stock lines. Per the ccache website that’s a .262 savings from Ultegra (at a much higher cost). We’re at 7.46 kg, getting there.

WHEELS: So it all comes down to the wheels and a good question someone asked of me: why would you run low rim profile wheels on an S5? The answer is, “to approach spndtrxi’s target without buying ultra-expensive wheels such as Lightweights or high end ZIPPs.”

The S5 is specced with 52 / 63 Reserve wheels with ZIPP hubs. Per the Reserve site, standard weights are 1514 g to 1606 g with various DT Swiss hubs, 1534 g with the 240s. I don’t know the ZIPP hub weights and will use the 240s as an equivalent, although more likely than not the ZIPP is heavier per the Cervelo practice above.

I usually upgrade wheels, but to low rim profiles. My awesome Light Bicycle AR36s are 1.29 kg using DT Swiss 180 hubs at <$1100, and I have Roval Alpinists on another bike at 1.23 kg but at more than twice the price. This produces massive .24 to .30 kg savings to get to a final 7.16 to 7.22 kg number and spndtrxi’s target — understanding that I would not buy this bike because I’d go for SRAM Red, which per ccache adds .166 minus the Shimano battery and extra cables, so maybe it adds .12 kg.

But if you want deeper rim depths, what do you do to cut from 7.46 kg? The new ZIPP NSW 454s are quoted at 1.358 kg, $4000, and are tubeless only. Buying them gets us to about 7.29 kg (1.53 stock – 1.36 454s) from the Dura Ace build, at the high end of the spndtrxi target, but at a very high extra cost and a different form factor for the wheels. Even I’m not a sufficiently fanatic cyclist to go to Lightweights.

The big caveat is that all of this is for a size 58, so actual numbers will vary with your frame size. I don’t have a standard adjustment to that (the effect also is in the wider handlebars), when I do this for my own bikes I work from a size 56 baseline such as my then-current bike.

Note that per Bike Radar, “We’ve got an S5 Force eTap AXS in to test (look out for a review coming soon), and it weighs 8.2kg without pedals in a size 56.” That would be 8.484 with my pedals. As noted, with my pedals the S5 Ultegra size 58 weighed 8.47 kg. Per ccache, and after a guesstimate .05 or so reduction for the battery and cables (see above), Force is 229 g heavier than Ultegra. That would make the Bike Radar size 56 at 8.245 with my pedals, vs. 8.47 with my pedals in the actual weight version. This extra datapoint suggests there is a noticeable difference in weight in going from 56 to 58.

PEDALS BACK AND MY BIKE DECISION: And of course you have to add the pedals back in for real life. I use .229 (real life weight) Look Keo 2 blades as the baseline in abstract builds, so the build here would be 7.39 to 7.45 kg with pedals.

In my real world bike decisions, for comparative purposes, I do include pedals, in my case .284 Assiomas. With those, and the SRAM Red and Cadex saddle and LB wheels I’d move from an existing bike, this hypothetical S5 build for me would 7.66 kg or so at size 58 (there’s also some weight savings because in my build the power meter is in the pedals and not the Red crank), maybe 100 g lower per above to be conservative or 7.56 kg (who knows?) at my size 56. That compares to my current 7.535 or let’s say 7.54 kg bike with a more enjoyable ride experience. Hence, I’m passing on the S5.

What’s the S5 frame weight?

We can use this analysis to try to guessetimate answer the $64 million question — what’s the S5 frame weight? I’ll do this by comparison between the hypothetical S5 build for me (7.56 kg) and the 7.54 kg build of my current Chapter2. That’s because all the parts are the same in these two builds except for the seatpost, frame, bar / stem combination, and fork. (I can refer to the bar / stem combination as an item in both bikes because the Chapter2 also has a one-piece, the Mana.)

The Chapter2 seatpost is 207 g with the clamp. For the S5, I have not seen any report that the seatpost has been changed other than the offset, and the prior generation post is compatible. The Hylix substitute per an eBay ad is 146 g or 159 g with the former covering riders up to 85 kg. I’ll use the lower number. If so then the S5 post is .226 g or about .02 kg more than the Chapter 2. I think that makes sense as the S5 post is very chunky. So after taking this into account, the S5 build is now 0.04 more than the equivalent Chapter2 build.

The Chapter2 fork is 443 g. The S5 fork tire clearance has been increased, which may add to its weight from the prior generation. Then again, I’d expect Cervelo to have tried to reduce the carbon in it, so let’s say it is the same. I’d be surprised if the fork weighed materially less than the Chapter2 fork, because the S5 fork piece almost certainly includes the bayonet part of the front shifter system. I’ll call this a wash.

So now the only items to handle are the frame and the stem \ handlebar. The Mana is 378 g. And here’s the big piece of the puzzle: at size 56, actual weight including hangers and bolts, the Chapter2 frameset is 1250 g, higher than the quoted spec.

That’s a total of 1.628 or 1.63 kg for the Chapter2. From the calculations above, add 0.04 to get to the S5. That places the S5 frame and V stem \ handlebar at 1.67 kg. Unless the V bar / stem is very heavy (which it may be), then the frame is pretty heavy. The math is obvious, but even the V bar / stem is 500 g (something no weight weenie would tolerate), the S5 frameset at size 56 would be 1170 g, far above the “is it 900 g?” hope. More likely the V bar / stem is lighter and the frame is heavier, along the lines of 1200 g.

It's always possible I got the math wrong or have some missing assumptions, but that’s what I end up with from the real world actual weight of the bike I rode. It could be that the effect of frame size is greater than I assume and that bikes in the sizes below the top-end 58 are much lighter.
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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

1200g inexcusable ... my size 47 BMC is 1043g which is inexcusable since BMC said 980g for size medium which is either 54 or 56 either way I got a tank compared to spec.
Stem 230g
Bars 233g
Seatpost 189g
Fork 475g :roll:

having issues with my THM adjusting bolt so using a heavy quarq PM .. sadly 7.8kg right now. With the overbuilt Varia 715 mount.
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cajer
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by cajer

I'll measure my existing 51cm S5 disc (previous gen) without wheels when I get home in 10 days and let people do some math

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Stendhal
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by Stendhal

spdntrxi wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:11 pm
1200g inexcusable ... my size 47 BMC is 1043g which is inexcusable since BMC said 980g for size medium which is either 54 or 56 either way I got a tank compared to spec.
Stem 230g
Bars 233g
Seatpost 189g
Fork 475g :roll:

having issues with my THM adjusting bolt so using a heavy quarq PM .. sadly 7.8kg right now. With the overbuilt Varia 715 mount.
if someone is seriously considering the S5 I'd check my math, but I don't think the numbers will change radically. Even if I 'm off by say 150g, that's heavy -- although not necessarily fit a pure aero bike. I do think my numbers are consistent with real world total bike data that's out there so far.

Frankly at your smaller size frames you should have many good options as to weight albeit maybe a smaller selection of frames.
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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

Stendhal wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:53 pm
spdntrxi wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:11 pm
1200g inexcusable ... my size 47 BMC is 1043g which is inexcusable since BMC said 980g for size medium which is either 54 or 56 either way I got a tank compared to spec.
Stem 230g
Bars 233g
Seatpost 189g
Fork 475g :roll:

having issues with my THM adjusting bolt so using a heavy quarq PM .. sadly 7.8kg right now. With the overbuilt Varia 715 mount.
if someone is seriously considering the S5 I'd check my math, but I don't think the numbers will change radically. Even if I 'm off by say 150g, that's heavy -- although not necessarily fit a pure aero bike. I do think my numbers are consistent with real world total bike data that's out there so far.

I'm also considering offing the TT bike and get clipon bars. Doing local tri's are too few and far between since the pandemic..Feel like the TTiR is a waste or money right now.

Frankly at your smaller size frames you should have many good options as to weight albeit maybe a smaller selection of frames.
yeah I'd like to know what a DA12sp 51cm weighs.. from there I just subtract for my crankset , saddle and add my pedals. If they say the wheels weigh 1500g it's a wash. Hopefully their thuraxles have those heavy handles and more can be saved by going aftermarket. Then get a helix seat post or wait for Darimo.
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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

my LBS is supposed to get a DA 51cm.. I dont know if it's colored or black

I plan to weight it, maybe even the weigh the wheels themselves (if they let me) and bring my own scale which is calibrated to a known class4 standard.
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Tomandtom
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by Tomandtom

I finally got my new bike, my 2023 cervelo s5

Size 54
Five black color
Ultegra 8100 groupset
Dura ace c60 with tublito s tube and 25c vitoria corsa tan color.
San marco aspide saddle
Shimano pedal(i don't know that series number)

7.92kg with pedal and garmin mount(no bottle cage, garmin, sensors)
Well... i think the frame is quite lighter than my worry. I need to ride but unfortunately rainy days here.

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

7.92 with Pedals... promising.

Ultegra is heavier then DA
DA C60 wheels are +100g what I plan to run.
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Tomandtom
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by Tomandtom

:D
Last edited by Tomandtom on Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tomandtom
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by Tomandtom

spdntrxi wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:08 pm
7.92 with Pedals... promising.

Ultegra is heavier then DA
DA C60 wheels are +100g what I plan to run.
My pedal is maybe pd550? or something low grade. It is really heavy and c60 wheelset is almost 1610g without rim tape.
It depends on your build. S5 is qute light frame considering aero bike.

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

Tomandtom wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:27 pm
spdntrxi wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:08 pm
7.92 with Pedals... promising.

Ultegra is heavier then DA
DA C60 wheels are +100g what I plan to run.
My pedal is maybe pd550? or something low grade. It is really heavy and c60 wheelset is almost 1610g without rim tape.
It depends on your build. S5 is qute light frame considering aero bike.
I hope your pedals are 2 lbs :thumbup:
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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

Tomandtom wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:27 pm
spdntrxi wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:08 pm
7.92 with Pedals... promising.

Ultegra is heavier then DA
DA C60 wheels are +100g what I plan to run.
My pedal is maybe pd550? or something low grade. It is really heavy and c60 wheelset is almost 1610g without rim tape.
It depends on your build. S5 is qute light frame considering aero bike.
310ish for those pedals... so just as heavy as my Garmins

lets call the Wheelset a wash.. I run 28 and tubeless and you are 25 with light tubes..
Pedals = wash (Garmin vector)
Saddle=wash ( Fizik adaptive 00)
so 7.92
-300g for DA vs Ultegra = 7.62
-200g for my THM Cranks vs DA = 7.42
-100g for a possible Dario seatpost 7.32.

Getting pretty close.. maybe me getting a 51cm would save me a handful of grams, not much. I can go back to an BontragerXXX saddle and save another 100g. Light at the end of the tunnel.
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