“Different” new Madone (2023)

[Tomasz]

Have you any information about Project One ? Will it be available in Project One or when ? If you pay that cash for bike, that will be nice to paint it on colour you like and equip with parts you need. My LBS don't have any info.

[Lina]

I leave aside the “if the rider is more aero then the overall system is more aero” (thanks for stating the obvious) but I am a bit skeptical on aero performance in 90% of the cases where we experience <10% yaw angles (trek themselves mentioned it on an old littérature)

From their own data there is barely a difference until you reach 7.5 deg meaning that in every days life you won’t see anything. Now it could always make the difference the “once in a blue moon” day you are attacking in crazy side wind where you have 15-20deg yaw angle…




It also questions the “hole” impact in aero, they illustrate its theoretical benefits with 0yaw angles simulations… and that’s where the 2 bikes behave exactly the same.

The whole 90% of time in <10 degree yaw is such a bad take. As a whole it might be true but it all depends on where you ride. Someone might practically never see >10 degree yaws. While others experience them most of the days they're out riding. What is crazy windy for others might be a calm day for someone else. On bike vacations I've had cases where we've just been talking among our group about how it's nice to ride when it's not that windy, only to overhear someone complain how it's so windy to their friends on our next stop.

I've not seen a day with below 10 m/s winds, up to +15 m/s in gusts, in the last two weeks. And thanks to the prevelant wind direction and the roads most of my rides are spent riding in side winds.

[cajer]

I leave aside the “if the rider is more aero then the overall system is more aero” (thanks for stating the obvious) but I am a bit skeptical on aero performance in 90% of the cases where we experience <10% yaw angles (trek themselves mentioned it on an old littérature)

From their own data there is barely a difference until you reach 7.5 deg meaning that in every days life you won’t see anything. Now it could always make the difference the “once in a blue moon” day you are attacking in crazy side wind where you have 15-20deg yaw angle…




It also questions the “hole” impact in aero, they illustrate its theoretical benefits with 0yaw angles simulations… and that’s where the 2 bikes behave exactly the same.

The whole 90% of time in <10 degree yaw is such a bad take. As a whole it might be true but it all depends on where you ride. Someone might practically never see >10 degree yaws. While others experience them most of the days they're out riding. What is crazy windy for others might be a calm day for someone else. On bike vacations I've had cases where we've just been talking among our group about how it's nice to ride when it's not that windy, only to overhear someone complain how it's so windy to their friends on our next stop.

I've not seen a day with below 10 m/s winds, up to +15 m/s in gusts, in the last two weeks. And thanks to the prevelant wind direction and the roads most of my rides are spent riding in side winds.

You can't use ancdoate experience that didn't even measure wind speeds. There have been wind speed surveys of large areas of the world and data from that was used to develop the 90% of time < 10 degree yaw figure.

Additional n = low testing has also been done with wind probe sensors at very windy places like Kona, and the majority of time is still below 10 degrees IIRC ~70% of the time. In non-windy places of course the data is even lower yaw.

[Lina]

I leave aside the “if the rider is more aero then the overall system is more aero” (thanks for stating the obvious) but I am a bit skeptical on aero performance in 90% of the cases where we experience <10% yaw angles (trek themselves mentioned it on an old littérature)

From their own data there is barely a difference until you reach 7.5 deg meaning that in every days life you won’t see anything. Now it could always make the difference the “once in a blue moon” day you are attacking in crazy side wind where you have 15-20deg yaw angle…




It also questions the “hole” impact in aero, they illustrate its theoretical benefits with 0yaw angles simulations… and that’s where the 2 bikes behave exactly the same.

The whole 90% of time in <10 degree yaw is such a bad take. As a whole it might be true but it all depends on where you ride. Someone might practically never see >10 degree yaws. While others experience them most of the days they're out riding. What is crazy windy for others might be a calm day for someone else. On bike vacations I've had cases where we've just been talking among our group about how it's nice to ride when it's not that windy, only to overhear someone complain how it's so windy to their friends on our next stop.

I've not seen a day with below 10 m/s winds, up to +15 m/s in gusts, in the last two weeks. And thanks to the prevelant wind direction and the roads most of my rides are spent riding in side winds.

You can't use ancdoate experience that didn't even measure wind speeds. There have been wind speed surveys of large areas of the world and data from that was used to develop the 90% of time < 10 degree yaw figure.

Additional n = low testing has also been done with wind probe sensors at very windy places like Kona, and the majority of time is still below 10 degrees IIRC ~70% of the time. In non-windy places of course the data is even lower yaw.

Sorry, but this doesn't count as very windy. Try doubling those numbers and then we might talk.

How likely you're to to experience high yaws depends entirely on where you ride. If you live somewhere windy then it's very likely. If you don't, then you're going to be mostly riding in very low yaw. Looking at an average from couple of locations or even worldwide is useless. What matters is where you're riding your bike, not the worldwide average. And this can change drastically even on short distances. Terrain effects wind speeds massively. You can have two locations not even 100 km apart where one gets constant high speed winds and the other is quite calm. What also matters is the road infrastructure, are the roads constructed in places that are completely open to wind or is there something to block the ground level wind?

[TobinHatesYou]

Either way, if the Madone excels in crosswinds, that’s not a bad thing. You don’t really break away from a peloton in non-windy conditions unless the teams let you. When it’s windy as hell, you can tear the peloton to shreds.

[C36]

The whole 90% of time in <10 degree yaw is such a bad take. As a whole it might be true but it all depends on where you ride.

It’s called real life and yes, you may have cases were you may see wider angles but even at Kona you don’t see 20% at wider angles.

The main point is that running the maths (using Mavic yaw weighted angles law), I can’t find their 9W savings versus previous gen. The savings being at marginal yaw angles, unless you artificially exaggerate those angles weight I can’t find 9W…

Either way, if the Madone excels in crosswinds, that’s not a bad thing. You don’t really break away from a peloton in non-windy conditions unless the teams let you. When it’s windy as hell, you can tear the peloton to shreds.

That’s obviously a good thing but we don’t have anything saying it is better than competition, just is better than previous.


Supersix evo2 HM - 5.9 stiff-aero version, 5.6kg light specs.

[Andrew69]

Have you any information about Project One ? Will it be available in Project One or when ? If you pay that cash for bike, that will be nice to paint it on colour you like and equip with parts you need. My LBS don't have any info.

Website has a Project One release in "Autumn 2022"

[Lbert]

Has anyone received more concrete information about frame, fork, and seatpost weights?

https://youtu.be/ZlkvBLvJqiY
Size 56, Quicksilver:
Handlebar = 335g
Fork = 472g
Seatpost = 182g
Frame = 1133g
Total = 2122g

Looks like lighter than gen 6 frameset

[RDY]

The whole 90% of time in <10 degree yaw is such a bad take. As a whole it might be true but it all depends on where you ride.

It’s called real life and yes, you may have cases were you may see wider angles but even at Kona you don’t see 20% at wider angles.

The main point is that running the maths (using Mavic yaw weighted angles law), I can’t find their 9W savings versus previous gen. The savings being at marginal yaw angles, unless you artificially exaggerate those angles weight I can’t find 9W…

Either way, if the Madone excels in crosswinds, that’s not a bad thing. You don’t really break away from a peloton in non-windy conditions unless the teams let you. When it’s windy as hell, you can tear the peloton to shreds.

That’s obviously a good thing but we don’t have anything saying it is better than competition, just is better than previous.


Supersix evo2 HM - 5.9 stiff-aero version, 5.6kg light specs.

The information also doesn't say it's better than previous. Real world conditions are highly turbulent, particularly when the wind is strong and gusty. These are tested in steady state ... it's in no way representative of real world performance when there's any kind of serious air movement with any kind of obstacles or relief in the wind's path.

[tmrace]

Has anyone received more concrete information about frame, fork, and seatpost weights?

https://youtu.be/ZlkvBLvJqiY
Size 56, Quicksilver:
Handlebar = 335g
Fork = 472g
Seatpost = 182g
Frame = 1133g
Total = 2122g

Looks like lighter than gen 6 frameset

Hmm. Weight is wayyy over what they claimed. Trek product team claimed the frame was sub 1000g and the fork about 400g. Trek support told me the same plus that the 42x100 handlebar was 295g.

Either that silver paint is ridiculously thick and heavy, or the weights Trek was claiming initially simply aren't accurate.

[spdntrxi]

^ love that color.. but @ 1100g forget it.

[TobinHatesYou]

That's likely the heaviest stock paint theme and Trek uses unpainted weights in its whitepapers afaik. If we're gonna mention faults, there's a paint bubble on the lip of the BB shell.

[tmrace]

That's likely the heaviest stock paint theme and Trek uses unpainted weights in its whitepapers afaik. If we're gonna mention faults, there's a paint bubble on the lip of the BB shell.

I saw that too.

The weight on the frame also included the chain catcher, both derailleur mounts, and the di2 battery holder.

Unpainted weight doesn't explain why the handlebar is 40g more than their CS team said, but maybe that's preproduction.

I'm still looking forward to seeing some of the other colors weighed. The grey smoke is supposed to be the lightest. Guess we will see.

[Cemicar]

So we'll see plenty of smaller Madones in Le Tour Femmes.

Is this 54? Or 52?

[TobinHatesYou]

So we'll see plenty of smaller Madones in Le Tour Femmes.

Is this 54? Or 52?

That is definitely a 52cm. Doubt we’ll see a 54cm at the TdF Femmes. Ellen van Dijk rides a 58cm. Tayler Wiles, who isn’t on the startlist, rides a 54cm.