Gp5000 s tr tubeless vs. Gp5000 clincher latex

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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mrlobber
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by mrlobber

ToileySiphon wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:17 pm
Aren't latex tubes prone to sudden blowouts?
No.
Blowouts are caused by incorrect installation where the tube gets squeezed between the rim & tyre sidewall.
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FlatlandClimber
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by FlatlandClimber

The same tire (Say GP5000s TR) will be about equally fast with a Vittoria/ Challenge/ Silca/ Vredenstein Latex Tube inside, as with 30-40ml of sealant.
However, I feel like the fastest tires are still tube type, with the Vittoria Corsa Speed and Schwalbe Pro One TT being notable exceptions here.
The fastest TT tires, and even the fastest road tires are still tubed clinchers.
As mentioned before though, the fastest tires are the ones that are not flat, and a good TL (like the GP5000sTR) easily outperforms something like the Turbo Cotton there.

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Woland
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by Woland

Can anyone compare these tyres comfort wise?

I'm running the 5000S TR 28mm and like the performance, but comfort leaves something to be desired. Wondering if clincher + latex would fix that.

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Orlok
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by Orlok

Woland wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 2:04 pm
Can anyone compare these tyres comfort wise?

I'm running the 5000S TR 28mm and like the performance, but comfort leaves something to be desired. Wondering if clincher + latex would fix that.
It will be nothing when you use them both with same pressure.!
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Butcher
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by Butcher

What? This is so simple. Continential does not make a tubeless 23c tire. Get the 23c 5000 with a latex tube. Everything else costs you more.
Last edited by Butcher on Sun May 22, 2022 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lelandjt
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by Lelandjt

I'm using 23mm GP5000s because I have smooth roads and never get punctures. How much am I giving up by using thin "ultralight" butyl tubes instead of latex?

BigBoyND
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by BigBoyND

yingyu wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:19 pm

Hookless rims are generally lighter and wider than hooked ones but they must pair with tubeless tires.
Lighter? If you multiply the size of a hook with the density of carbon you'll get like 5g for two rims, which is less than the mfg variance between two identical rims. And that's if the wall below the hook is unchanged (often not the case).

The hookless weight argument doesn't pass the sniff test at all.
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FlatlandClimber
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by FlatlandClimber

BigBoyND wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:45 pm
yingyu wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:19 pm

Hookless rims are generally lighter and wider than hooked ones but they must pair with tubeless tires.
Lighter? If you multiply the size of a hook with the density of carbon you'll get like 5g for two rims, which is less than the mfg variance between two identical rims. And that's if the wall below the hook is unchanged (often not the case).

The hookless weight argument doesn't pass the sniff test at all.
He is still correct though. Hookless rims are generally pretty light.
I agree that the carbon form the hook can hardly be a relevant influence here. However, SRAM has shed loads of weight on the Hookless rims of the latest gen, while the 858 and 808 have remained heavy.
The Extralite rims are probably the lightest TL disc brake rims there are, and they are hookless. I guess there is more to the construction in hookless, that helps shed weight.
Specialized SW Æthos (2021) 6.1kg
Specialized SW Crux (2022) 7.2kg
Specialized SW Tarmac (2022) 7.1kg
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg

*all weights are race ready bikes, large frame size.
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Mocs123
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by Mocs123

mrlobber wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:51 pm
ToileySiphon wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:17 pm
Aren't latex tubes prone to sudden blowouts?
No.
Blowouts are caused by incorrect installation where the tube gets squeezed between the rim & tyre sidewall.
Correct. Latex tubes are very supple and take a little more care and effort to install. That's why I carry a light-ish butyl tube (Specialized Turbo Talc or Continental Race Light - both about 78g) as a spare as if I have a flat and am changing a tube on the side of the road I'm probably not going to be super careful like I would be at home.

I currently run latex tubes and GP5000's in one bike and tubeless GP5000S-TR's on another bike. The tubeless tires are absolutely more trouble to install, but so far no flats in the past 1,400 miles/2,250km (knocks on wood) whereas I've had two flats on the regular GP5000's during that time. Tubeless tires are great - until they aren't so it's weighing whether you want the more headache of the setup and the more headache of the 10% of the time they don't seal with the less headache of fixing 90% of your normal flats or not? No wrong answer really, and I'm still trying to decide myself.

Currently I am carrying a spare tube on my tubeless setup, but I'm not convinced I'd be able to remount the tire in the field after having to install it. If a dynaplug won't fix it I may be having to make a phone call.
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wooger
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by wooger

yingyu wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:19 pm
It depends on road quality. On rough roads, tubeless allows lower pressure without pinch flat risks. On smooth and clean roads latex tubes would be a simpler setup.
I'm not sure anyone's getting pinch flats on road at close to the recommended pressures anyway, I certainly never have. Silca & SRAM calculators only suggest ~2 PSI difference lower for tubeless anyway, probably within the measurement error on most gauges.

yingyu
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by yingyu

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 1:01 pm
BigBoyND wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:45 pm
yingyu wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:19 pm

Hookless rims are generally lighter and wider than hooked ones but they must pair with tubeless tires.
Lighter? If you multiply the size of a hook with the density of carbon you'll get like 5g for two rims, which is less than the mfg variance between two identical rims. And that's if the wall below the hook is unchanged (often not the case).

The hookless weight argument doesn't pass the sniff test at all.
He is still correct though. Hookless rims are generally pretty light.
I agree that the carbon form the hook can hardly be a relevant influence here. However, SRAM has shed loads of weight on the Hookless rims of the latest gen, while the 858 and 808 have remained heavy.
The Extralite rims are probably the lightest TL disc brake rims there are, and they are hookless. I guess there is more to the construction in hookless, that helps shed weight.
Right I was thinking the current generation of Zipp 303/353/404/454 wheels. If we look at Farsports https://www.wheelsfar.com/feder-27mm-28 ... p0119.html example, the 35mm-deep hooked set weighs 1390g, while the hookless set weighs 1330g, which is 60g less.

According to https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/prod ... hem-468466, rim hooks require soft silicone tools so the tools can be pulled out after curing carbon. OTOH hookless rim walls can be compressed by steel tools to achieve better precision.

I tend to think hooked tubeless-ready rims pay the extra weight to have tubed/tubeless compatibility. Without that compromise, we see lighter wheels e.g. tube-only gen 1 Roval Rapide/Alpinist or hookless Zipp / Cadex.
wooger wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 4:59 pm
yingyu wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:19 pm
It depends on road quality. On rough roads, tubeless allows lower pressure without pinch flat risks. On smooth and clean roads latex tubes would be a simpler setup.
I'm not sure anyone's getting pinch flats on road at close to the recommended pressures anyway, I certainly never have. Silca & SRAM calculators only suggest ~2 PSI difference lower for tubeless anyway, probably within the measurement error on most gauges.
My friend pinch-flatted the front tire when crossing rails at 40 km/h. I don't know if he pumped the latex tubes correctly but given the high leak rate of latex it's a real risk. SRAM calculator (https://axs.sram.com/guides/tire/pressure) suggests hookless tubeless setup at ~5psi lower than tubes setup (25mm rims, 28c tires, 62kg rider). I run 3 psi lower than SRAM's recommendation on my local roads, mesaured by a digital pressure gauge. Enve (https://www.enve.com/learn/tire-pressure/) recommends even lower pressures. Optimal tire pressures depend on wheels and personal preferences. YMMV.

I used to run latex tubes in 2020 but began to experience punctures caused by car tire wires entering 2021 (economic recovery?). Around that time Zipp came up with hookless 353 NSW, so I switched to tubeless. Tubeless has its share of troubles but Dynaplugs work most of the time.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

mrlobber wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:51 pm
ToileySiphon wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:17 pm
Aren't latex tubes prone to sudden blowouts?
No.
Blowouts are caused by incorrect installation where the tube gets squeezed between the rim & tyre sidewall.
Latex (especially the thin, lightweight ones) is prone to creep at high pressures. They will find and creep into the smallest openings, such as the gap on the edge of cotton rim tapes, and most notably the crevice between the tire's bead and the rim. This is why Continental doesn't sell a stand-alone latex tube but they put latex in their high-end tubulars racing tires. Tubular racing tires are round and don't have irregularies that latex can creep into at high pressures. For clinchers, latex is OK as long as you use tubeless rim tape, use thicker/heavier latex such as the Vittoria latex, and run less than 70psi. If you use the lightest latex and also run very high pressures, yes, you're playing with fire as blowouts can happen even when the tube is installed correctly.

MikeD
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by MikeD

pdlpsher1 wrote:
mrlobber wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:51 pm
ToileySiphon wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:17 pm
Aren't latex tubes prone to sudden blowouts?
No.
Blowouts are caused by incorrect installation where the tube gets squeezed between the rim & tyre sidewall.
Latex (especially the thin, lightweight ones) is prone to creep at high pressures. They will find and creep into the smallest openings, such as the gap on the edge of cotton rim tapes, and most notably the crevice between the tire's bead and the rim. This is why Continental doesn't sell a stand-alone latex tube but they put latex in their high-end tubulars racing tires. Tubular racing tires are round and don't have irregularies that latex can creep into at high pressures. For clinchers, latex is OK as long as you use tubeless rim tape, use thicker/heavier latex such as the Vittoria latex, and run less than 70psi. If you use the lightest latex and also run very high pressures, yes, you're playing with fire as blowouts can happen even when the tube is installed correctly.
That's an interesting theory, but I've never seen any facts to back it up. Also, a proper sized rim strip goes wall to wall, and the tire beads overlap, thus there is no exposed edge for a tube to creep under. Some latex tubes are undersized in diameter and that makes it easy to pinch the tube under the bead, if you are not careful.
Last edited by MikeD on Tue May 24, 2022 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

MikeD wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 8:51 pm
pdlpsher1 wrote:
mrlobber wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:51 pm
ToileySiphon wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:17 pm
Aren't latex tubes prone to sudden blowouts?
No.
Blowouts are caused by incorrect installation where the tube gets squeezed between the rim & tyre sidewall.
Latex (especially the thin, lightweight ones) is prone to creep at high pressures. They will find and creep into the smallest openings, such as the gap on the edge of cotton rim tapes, and most notably the crevice between the tire's bead and the rim. This is why Continental doesn't sell a stand-alone latex tube but they put latex in their high-end tubulars racing tires. Tubular racing tires are round and don't have irregularies that latex can creep into at high pressures. For clinchers, latex is OK as long as you use tubeless rim tape, use thicker/heavier latex such as the Vittoria latex, and run less than 70psi. If you use the lightest latex and also run very high pressures, yes, you're playing with fire as blowouts can happen even when the tube is installed correctly.
That's an interesting theory, but I've never seen any facts to back it up.
Note that people who use Veloplugs have spontaneous blowouts not caused by flats. People who use tubulars with latex tubes have no issues.

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JaeOne3345
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by JaeOne3345

Most issues with latex stem from people who don't install tubes properly and fail to check if the tube is pinched during installation.

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