105 2x12 - R7170 (R7150) / R7120 (R7100) - di2 / mechanical (MY2024)

[robertbb]

You "spin out" on a 46-11 on descents...... on a gravel bike...... meaning you were reguarly descending at over 50km/h on unpaved gravel roads, pedaling 90+ rpm and wanted more speed?

Lelz.

Outside of your selective editing he specifically said 'at road speeds'. Perhaps you're unaware but gravel bikes are often ridden on road. Where I live a door to door gravel ride will have a minimum of 30% tarmac simply as a necessity to link up off-road sections. If you are aware of that, you're deliberately misrepresenting his comment so you can be bitchy about it.

I'm yet to be convinced anyone who is not a very, very talented sprinter or a high-FTP genetic freak needs a cassette starting below 12 (even with a subcompact).

'Needs' is a red herring. 'Needs' is completely irrelevant. Most people don't 'need' anything more than a single speed to ride around on, but we prefer something more. Similarly no one needs to sprint, or needs to attack a downhill, or needs to smash along in a tailwind section... but we want to.

Show me where I selectively edited anything, please?

Anyway.

Gearing like 53x11 or 52x11 (and 39x28 or 39x30) is what professional bike riders use. These riders are physiologically very, very different to the vast majority of human beings. They are contortionists.... with insane cardiovascular and VO2 numbers which, toegher with their mitochondrial and muscle fibre make-up, is rare. They're freaks.

Any normal person who thinks they need gearing just like that so they don't "spin out" (on a gravel bike with ~40mm knobby tyres) has rocks in their head or is lying.

So much of this industry is built around selling pro level stuff to ordinary folks who simply don't "need" it (there's that word again).

I have no problem whatsoever if people "want" pro level stuff. But they sure as sh*t don't need it and may actually go faster for longer (and more enjoyably) on bikes that are simply more comfortable and geared differently. That includes on road as well as on gravel.

[Hexsense]

Any normal person who thinks they need gearing just like that so they don't "spin out" (on a gravel bike with ~40mm knobby tyres) has rocks in their head or is lying.

Or is a grinder that totally unable to spin at a decent cadence.
All pros can rev way pass 100rpm, some do 130rpm in sprint. Some untrained amateur can't even reach 90 without complaining they spin out.

[SystemShock]

Come ride some rolling hills and you'll notice you'll be on your top gear quite a bit in terrain where tucking wouldn't be faster. Big mountains aren't where you need that top gear most of the time, that's where you can just coast in an aero tuck, just as you said. But on rolling hills where the downhills aren't steep enough to coast is where you'll be on that top gear.

On most of my rides I hit somewhere between 50 and 60 km/h. And most of my riding is Z2 somewhere between 200 and 250 watts. On any ride that's ridden faster the top speed is going to hit over 60. And you'd be lucky to get to 50 on any of these hills by tucking.

Hi Lina. I do agree with you that there are rollers (as we call them here) that have the right profile (very short, and steep enough) to where you want a big top gear. But, just how big?

The last time I had to go extremely fast while pedaling was on my retro-bike in a fierce tailwind. Was at 55kph for a really long time... in a 52x14. Was not spun out. If things had picked up to where I could maintain 60 kph, then a 52x13 would've been good, but I had that.

There are ppl who prefer to ride at 90 RPM or close no matter the situation. But I personally think part of a rider's range comes from being comfortable at different cadences, and not relying solely on the gearing for everything.

Your mileage may vary.

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[SystemShock]

No one needs anything. Again, that's a total red herring.

I don't need an 11, just like you don't need a tighter range cassette that starts with a 12 or 13. It'll give you nothing except some tighter ratio jumps that you mildly prefer. It's nowhere near becoming something you need.

What if you need a herring? AKA are a sea lion.

Srsly though, I will disagree with you on the 'there are no needs' thing.

While I think part of any good rider's skill-set is being comfortable pedaling in a wide range of cadences (from 60 to 120 RPM, at least), your gearing, at a minimum, shouldn't make things awful for you.

My very first Double Century ride (200 miles/300+ km) was a lousy experience, and the gearing was much of that. This was way back in the 6-speed days, and I was rockin' a 52/42 in front with a 14-17-20-24-28-32 freewheel in back.

Somehow, someway, for the ENTIRE ride (which I finished) the gear I actually needed was just about exactly halfway between two cogs. I was always in the wrong gear, for 200 miles, and it wore me down and frustrated me to no end. This was before I started training different cadences.

Now, did I NEED better gearing? You can argue that I didn't, 'cuz I finished the ride, and better training would've reduced the discomfort. But, good lord... if you'd been me on that ride, you would've FELT THE NEED, in no uncertain terms.

Very strictly-speaking, perhaps there are no needs. You could, for example, do heavily-loaded touring in the Rockies with a single-speed. You'd walk the bike A LOT, but technically, you could do it. But who in their right mind would really want to?

Ditto doing really long rides on super-uncomfortable saddles, or on tires that flat if you stare at them hard.

Perhaps, beyond a certain point, wants do in fact become needs.
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[Karvalo]

I have no problem whatsoever if people "want" pro level stuff.

Then why are you arguing and calling people stupid over it?

[Karvalo]

What if you need a herring? AKA are a sea lion.

Internet sea lions? I don't think you know what that means.

While I think part of any good rider's skill-set is being comfortable pedaling in a wide range of cadences (from 60 to 120 RPM, at least), your gearing, at a minimum, shouldn't make things awful for you.

In the situation you describe at the speeds I assume you were going you'd rarely have been more than 6RPM away from the cadence you wanted. You didn't feel awful because you didn't have enough gears. You felt awful because you were doing your first double century. Of course it felt awful. It was never not going to feel awful.

For you to insist that you absolutely NEED that 6rpm (even though you admit you think you could have just done slightly better training and been fine without it) but other people are dumb for enjoying pedalling big gears fast when they can is hypocritical and illogical.

[robertbb]

I have no problem whatsoever if people "want" pro level stuff.

Then why are you arguing and calling people stupid over it?

Because they said they "need" it. Not that they "want" it.

See the difference?

[SystemShock]

What if you need a herring? AKA are a sea lion.

Internet sea lions? I don't think you know what that means.

C'mon, Karv. The joke's not that hard to get.

While I think part of any good rider's skill-set is being comfortable pedaling in a wide range of cadences (from 60 to 120 RPM, at least), your gearing, at a minimum, shouldn't make things awful for you.

In the situation you describe at the speeds I assume you were going you'd rarely have been more than 6RPM away from the cadence you wanted. You didn't feel awful because you didn't have enough gears. You felt awful because you were doing your first double century. Of course it felt awful. It was never not going to feel awful.

More like 9 RPM. And, with respect, I did the ride, you didn't. You, in fact, were not there. Trust me, in my not well-trained state (for cadence), the gearing had a major impact.

Do you know of anyone nowadays who actually wants 3T or 4T jumps in their road flatland gears, as I had? Gosh, I sure don't.

For you to insist that you absolutely NEED that 6rpm (even though you admit you think you could have just done slightly better training and been fine without it) but other people are dumb for enjoying pedalling big gears fast when they can is hypocritical and illogical.

Not sure who you're referring to, as I have called no one dumb in this thread, and in fact have stated that ppl can buy whatever they like. Perhaps you're confusing me with another poster?

Given that, I will simply gently crumple your accusations of 'hypocrisy' and 'illogic' up and throw them in the wastebasket where they belong. You're welcome. 🗑

And, you are conflating a second thing beyond me and another poster... my complaint about huge jumps between gears w/out training different cadences, and my observation that most ppl likely don't need a 53x11. That's top-end, not gear spacing... two different things.

Regardless, the ideal would be to train for different cadences (especially high cadence) while having good gearing on top of that. Win-win.

But, that's kinda not how it is nowadays. Ppl seem to want the gearing to do most everything for them. Compare to the old days, where guys would ride a low fixed-gear in the winter just to get their spinning on point.

Kinda get where I'm coming from now?

That said, I have absolutely nothing against 13-speed, 14-speed (future), 1:1 low gears, numerous 1-tooth jumps, and buying whatever you want.
.

[Lina]

Gearing like 53x11 or 52x11 (and 39x28 or 39x30) is what professional bike riders use. These riders are physiologically very, very different to the vast majority of human beings. They are contortionists.... with insane cardiovascular and VO2 numbers which, toegher with their mitochondrial and muscle fibre make-up, is rare. They're freaks.

Any normal person who thinks they need gearing just like that so they don't "spin out" (on a gravel bike with ~40mm knobby tyres) has rocks in their head or is lying.

So much of this industry is built around selling pro level stuff to ordinary folks who simply don't "need" it (there's that word again).

I have no problem whatsoever if people "want" pro level stuff. But they sure as sh*t don't need it and may actually go faster for longer (and more enjoyably) on bikes that are simply more comfortable and geared differently. That includes on road as well as on gravel.

There are bike riders of many sizes. There are plenty of amateurs that will put out a lot more absolute watts than many pros. Simply because they're bigger. It might make you a generational talent of you've got an FTP of 6 W/kg but at 50 kg that's still a lot less absolute watts than someone 70 - 80 kg putting out 5 W/kg which is within reach for amateurs. Sure, being bigger also makes you slightly less aero, but absolute watts and your position still matter more than W/kg when you're not climbing.

Sure, if all you do is leisurely coffee rides then you probably don't want 53 or 52 chainrings. But if you're riding on faster group rides or races in rolling terrain you're going to need one. Because the speeds will get up to where you'll be on them. If your rides are completely flat or they're only big mountains, maybe you don't need one because the speeds don't get as high or you're just coasting. It all depends, so stop projecting your needs to everyone.

[robertbb]

You're forgetting a crucial part of the conversation, which is the smallest cog on the cassette.

Almost every cassette out there in 11 speed and certainly 12 speed has an 11t smallest cog (or even smaller).

With a 52 or 53t chainring, a 28mm tyre and an 11t cog you're going approximately 60km/hr at 95rpm.

The average speed at the Giro in 2021 was 39.53 km/h.

But yeah, Freddy lycra on his 3 hour Sunday chain bang sure needs that 53/11 so he can reach MAX SPEEDZ on the descent before he sh*ts himself and feathers the brakes.

[SystemShock]

It would just be nice if, once we get to 13-speed road, not all the damn cassettes start with a 10t.

IOW, I'd just be happy if the top-end gearing simply stayed at its current level of weirdness, and didn't get any weirder.

(Cue Weekend Warrior, circa 2025: "But I NEED a 52x10! And 52x9 would be moar BETTERERER!!")
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[SixThirteen]

Lots of assertions, not much data, so I offer you a 100km ride on fairly flat ground with about 800m of vertical, average speed just under 40kph. I'm a fairly average B grade rider. Long legs so spinning at more than about 100 rpm doesn't really happen. 52T on the front.

Here's my speed / cadence chart



While there's some noise of course, what you see is clustering around the rear sprocket size. I was using r8000 11-28, so from the right, you see 11T, then to the left 12T and so on.

If the cassette stopped at 12T I'd have spun out many times

[Karvalo]

I have no problem whatsoever if people "want" pro level stuff.

Then why are you arguing and calling people stupid over it?

Because they said they "need" it. Not that they "want" it.

You are mistaken. The person you said had rocks in their head did not say they needed anything, they just expressed a preference.

[Karvalo]

More like 9 RPM. And, with respect, I did the ride, you didn't. You, in fact, were not there. Trust me, in my not well-trained state (for cadence), the gearing had a major impact.

Given the nature of memory and the fact that it sounds like this was a long time ago, in a sense neither were you. It's as much the story you've told yourself about what happened as what actually happened. Plus you have no control for the experiment. You don't know how bad it would have felt to do the same ride with the same fitness and different gears. And you e said yourself you should have trained yourself to handle a 70rpm cadence range, not blow up because you're out by well under 10. Or you could say you need an ebike because you're not fast enough uphill.

Do you know of anyone nowadays who actually wants 3T or 4T jumps in their road flatland gears, as I had? Gosh, I sure don't.

If you're saying modern gears are way better than the ones that caused you a problem even though they start at 11... what's the problem?

[Lina]

You're forgetting a crucial part of the conversation, which is the smallest cog on the cassette.

Almost every cassette out there in 11 speed and certainly 12 speed has an 11t smallest cog (or even smaller).

With a 52 or 53t chainring, a 28mm tyre and an 11t cog you're going approximately 60km/hr at 95rpm.

The average speed at the Giro in 2021 was 39.53 km/h.

But yeah, Freddy lycra on his 3 hour Sunday chain bang sure needs that 53/11 so he can reach MAX SPEEDZ on the descent before he sh*ts himself and feathers the brakes.

Please stop projecting so much. Just because you don't need a 52 or 53 doesn't mean there aren't amateurs that do NEED one. Freddy lycra probably doesn't need one on his coffee rides. It's clear you don't need one. That doesn't mean everyone is like you. And it doesn't make you any less of a cyclist for not needing one even when there are amateurs that do need them.

If I'm regularly hitting over 100 rpm on a 52x11 in terrain where tucking would be slower who are you to tell me I don't need one and it's just my ego and imagination telling me that I need one.

And why would you ever bring up average speed? It's such an irrelevant stat that depends entirely on the route and conditions of the day.