Exactly. Shimano says consumers wanted 20+ lb bikes, disc, electronic and wanted to pay more as well. The reality is, they just decided this is how it will be and gave people no choice. Hopefully Campagnolo capitalizes on this moment because Chorus 12 mech is a far better groupset overall and it's made in Europe.AW84 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:20 pmSeems Shimano is in cahoots with the bike brands to render rim brakes obsolete, make us all buy a new bike. The majority of bikes on the road to this day are still rim, and with entry level and mid-range bikes creeping into the $7-10k range, you're going to see a lot more people keep/upgrade the bike they have. Surely Shimano recognizes the upgrade and repair market for these bikes, but it seems they have other motives.
105 2x12 - R7170 (R7150) / R7120 (R7100) - di2 / mechanical (MY2024)
Moderator: robbosmans
-
- Posts: 864
- Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am
- Location: New York
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Super Record 12
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523
-
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:18 pm
Outrageous behaviour. A company wanting you to buy a new bike with new parts so it can make a profit. Shouldn't be allowed.AW84 wrote:Seems Shimano is in cahoots with the bike brands to render rim brakes obsolete, make us all buy a new bike. The majority of bikes on the road to this day are still rim, and with entry level and mid-range bikes creeping into the $7-10k range, you're going to see a lot more people keep/upgrade the bike they have. Surely Shimano recognizes the upgrade and repair market for these bikes, but it seems they have other motives.
Sent from my COL-L29 using Tapatalk
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com
And if in a few years you break something, you might not be able to get your bike to work without replacing the full groupset, because spares will not be available anymore. Just like with 10 speed Di2 right now, which sure, it is not a particularly modern product, but there is no excues for bicycles bought about a decade ago to just become unrepairable.Treptay wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:59 pmI am a tech savvy person, and I still don't see the point of di2 and axs in it's current implementation.
The whole point of di2 and axs, in my opinion, should be the upgradeability and longevity.
The old 11 speed di2 stuff and the new 12speed di2 is only not compatible becuse they want to sell you the new stuff.
If they told me, "here, buy these expensive shifters, but we will support them for 3 groupset generations, you can upgrade your cassette, and chain for 12 speed and 13 speed later on, but the shifters and brakes will work", then I would consider buying it. You could argue that making the shifters now wireless doesn't make it compatible, but axs is full wireless and they just forgot about the old stuff.
I just see more ewaste in a few years, and here they had a great opportunity to create an electronic sustainable groupset, where you could upgrade the individual components to get more gears.
I think that there was a thread here from a guy that bought the old 11 speed sram red etap a few months before the launch of the new one, and after 2 years the shifter broke, and sram didn't have any replacements.blaugrana wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:55 pmAnd if in a few years you break something, you might not be able to get your bike to work without replacing the full groupset, because spares will not be available anymore. Just like with 10 speed Di2 right now, which sure, it is not a particularly modern product, but there is no excues for bicycles bought about a decade ago to just become unrepairable.Treptay wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:59 pmI am a tech savvy person, and I still don't see the point of di2 and axs in it's current implementation.
The whole point of di2 and axs, in my opinion, should be the upgradeability and longevity.
The old 11 speed di2 stuff and the new 12speed di2 is only not compatible becuse they want to sell you the new stuff.
If they told me, "here, buy these expensive shifters, but we will support them for 3 groupset generations, you can upgrade your cassette, and chain for 12 speed and 13 speed later on, but the shifters and brakes will work", then I would consider buying it. You could argue that making the shifters now wireless doesn't make it compatible, but axs is full wireless and they just forgot about the old stuff.
I just see more ewaste in a few years, and here they had a great opportunity to create an electronic sustainable groupset, where you could upgrade the individual components to get more gears.
I'm just sad that we won't see any imrovements to rim brake bikes, I really wanted my next bike to be direct mount rim brake, but seems that's not really an option anymore.
Tells you all you need to know about how vain and gullible cyclists are. With likely mutliple fully functioning modern bikes in the garage already, they willfully pay more for a heavier bike that is harder to work on, because FOMO. It's worth noting that bikes and components only cost what they cost because people continue to pay the price they charge. If you stop, they'll stop.rollinslow wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:26 pmExactly. Shimano says consumers wanted 20+ lb bikes, disc, electronic and wanted to pay more as well. The reality is, they just decided this is how it will be and gave people no choice. Hopefully Campagnolo capitalizes on this moment because Chorus 12 mech is a far better groupset overall and it's made in Europe.AW84 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:20 pmSeems Shimano is in cahoots with the bike brands to render rim brakes obsolete, make us all buy a new bike. The majority of bikes on the road to this day are still rim, and with entry level and mid-range bikes creeping into the $7-10k range, you're going to see a lot more people keep/upgrade the bike they have. Surely Shimano recognizes the upgrade and repair market for these bikes, but it seems they have other motives.
I'm in that bought. On that regard, praise sram because they made 12spd shifters work with 11spd dérailleurs. In that topic, shimano just said "screw you all".Treptay wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:39 pmI think that there was a thread here from a guy that bought the old 11 speed sram red etap a few months before the launch of the new one, and after 2 years the shifter broke, and sram didn't have any replacements.blaugrana wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:55 pmAnd if in a few years you break something, you might not be able to get your bike to work without replacing the full groupset, because spares will not be available anymore. Just like with 10 speed Di2 right now, which sure, it is not a particularly modern product, but there is no excues for bicycles bought about a decade ago to just become unrepairable.Treptay wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:59 pmI am a tech savvy person, and I still don't see the point of di2 and axs in it's current implementation.
The whole point of di2 and axs, in my opinion, should be the upgradeability and longevity.
The old 11 speed di2 stuff and the new 12speed di2 is only not compatible becuse they want to sell you the new stuff.
If they told me, "here, buy these expensive shifters, but we will support them for 3 groupset generations, you can upgrade your cassette, and chain for 12 speed and 13 speed later on, but the shifters and brakes will work", then I would consider buying it. You could argue that making the shifters now wireless doesn't make it compatible, but axs is full wireless and they just forgot about the old stuff.
I just see more ewaste in a few years, and here they had a great opportunity to create an electronic sustainable groupset, where you could upgrade the individual components to get more gears.
I'm just sad that we won't see any imrovements to rim brake bikes, I really wanted my next bike to be direct mount rim brake, but seems that's not really an option anymore.
With that said, I can't find any 12spd sram shifter available. I'll have to wait 4-6month for a new one...
-
- Posts: 781
- Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm
Cyclingtips are reporting 300g or ~10% lighter than Rival, which is quite significant IMO
EDIT: 120g lighter. Still significant despite my mistake.
EDIT 2: I don't think it is 50% more expensive. More like 10%, and who knows where the street prices will settle.
EDIT: 120g lighter. Still significant despite my mistake.
EDIT 2: I don't think it is 50% more expensive. More like 10%, and who knows where the street prices will settle.
Last edited by petromyzon on Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Also 50% more expensivepetromyzon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:13 pmCyclingtips are reporting 300g or ~10% lighter than Rival, which is quite significant IMO
- robbosmans
- Moderator
- Posts: 2778
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:40 pm
- Location: Central Belgium
- Contact:
Just a reminder that rim v disc debates have a specific thread: The Great Braking Debate Thread (Disc/Rim/Cantilever/Fixie/InsertNewTechHere)
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app
So don’t start any here please. Thanks
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app
So don’t start any here please. Thanks
-
- Posts: 781
- Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm
105 is so popular that street prices are usually very competitive compared to list.
If I had to bet there will be rim brake and mechanical versions next year to cover all bases and markets but they've chosen to release this as a special 40th birthday event.
I wonder if GRX will be 1x12 only after this - seems logical?!
If I had to bet there will be rim brake and mechanical versions next year to cover all bases and markets but they've chosen to release this as a special 40th birthday event.
I wonder if GRX will be 1x12 only after this - seems logical?!
105 rim brake is dead but what about 105 mechanical?
Still a lot of frames have a mechanical option.
105 electronic and disc only is no surprise to me: Bike companies can use the same expensive moulds with hydraulic disc brakes and complex hose routings (integrated cockpits,...) and offer the frames to consumer with Durace, Ultegra and 105 groupsets (and of course Rival, Force and Red).
From an OEM point of view, it's a logical evolution.
From a Shimano or Sram point of view also: the electronics of all those groupsets are identical. That easy and efficient to produce.
Still a lot of frames have a mechanical option.
105 electronic and disc only is no surprise to me: Bike companies can use the same expensive moulds with hydraulic disc brakes and complex hose routings (integrated cockpits,...) and offer the frames to consumer with Durace, Ultegra and 105 groupsets (and of course Rival, Force and Red).
From an OEM point of view, it's a logical evolution.
From a Shimano or Sram point of view also: the electronics of all those groupsets are identical. That easy and efficient to produce.
-
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:04 am
Exactly. Why a new bike if your rim-brake-equipped pinnacle of bikes works and works better than those new bikes? Why blame the companies that exist solely to sell stuff?AW84 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:01 pmTells you all you need to know about how vain and gullible cyclists are. With likely mutliple fully functioning modern bikes in the garage already, they willfully pay more for a heavier bike that is harder to work on, because FOMO. It's worth noting that bikes and components only cost what they cost because people continue to pay the price they charge. If you stop, they'll stop.
Just keep in mind that what GCN did is literaly a Shimano ad, not a journalistic piece. It's right there on the upper right corner of the Youtube thumbnail, somewhere where you won't notice it unless you are looking for it.
It also says "In association with Shimano" in the description, which is way too vague. They should be a lot more transparent with that and clarify what exactly Shimano paid for. If it was just travel expenses to a launch event, that is pretty standard in many industries, but paying for an ad is completely different.
In any case, if when there is a significant release in your industry you accept a paid promotion instead of publishing your actual thoughts on the product, what you do can't really be called journalism. Not for this piece, and not for anything else they publish, because they no credibility and no integrity.
-
- Posts: 864
- Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am
- Location: New York
GCN has no credibility basically. That happened a while ago which was disappointing.blaugrana wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:24 pmJust keep in mind that what GCN did is literaly a Shimano ad, not a journalistic piece. It's right there on the upper right corner of the Youtube thumbnail, somewhere where you won't notice it unless you are looking for it.
It also says "In association with Shimano" in the description, which is way too vague. They should be a lot more transparent with that and clarify what exactly Shimano paid for. If it was just travel expenses to a launch event, that is pretty standard in many industries, but paying for an ad is completely different.
In any case, if when there is a significant release in your industry you accept a paid promotion instead of publishing your actual thoughts on the product, what you do can't really be called journalism. Not for this piece, and not for anything else they publish, because they no credibility and no integrity.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Super Record 12
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com