105 2x12 - R7170 (R7150) / R7120 (R7100) - di2 / mechanical (MY2024)

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rollinslow
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by rollinslow

AW84 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:20 pm
Seems Shimano is in cahoots with the bike brands to render rim brakes obsolete, make us all buy a new bike. The majority of bikes on the road to this day are still rim, and with entry level and mid-range bikes creeping into the $7-10k range, you're going to see a lot more people keep/upgrade the bike they have. Surely Shimano recognizes the upgrade and repair market for these bikes, but it seems they have other motives.
Exactly. Shimano says consumers wanted 20+ lb bikes, disc, electronic and wanted to pay more as well. The reality is, they just decided this is how it will be and gave people no choice. Hopefully Campagnolo capitalizes on this moment because Chorus 12 mech is a far better groupset overall and it's made in Europe.
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MasterBean
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by MasterBean

AW84 wrote:Seems Shimano is in cahoots with the bike brands to render rim brakes obsolete, make us all buy a new bike. The majority of bikes on the road to this day are still rim, and with entry level and mid-range bikes creeping into the $7-10k range, you're going to see a lot more people keep/upgrade the bike they have. Surely Shimano recognizes the upgrade and repair market for these bikes, but it seems they have other motives.
Outrageous behaviour. A company wanting you to buy a new bike with new parts so it can make a profit. Shouldn't be allowed.

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blaugrana
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 9:49 pm

by blaugrana

Treptay wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:59 pm
I am a tech savvy person, and I still don't see the point of di2 and axs in it's current implementation.
The whole point of di2 and axs, in my opinion, should be the upgradeability and longevity.
The old 11 speed di2 stuff and the new 12speed di2 is only not compatible becuse they want to sell you the new stuff.
If they told me, "here, buy these expensive shifters, but we will support them for 3 groupset generations, you can upgrade your cassette, and chain for 12 speed and 13 speed later on, but the shifters and brakes will work", then I would consider buying it. You could argue that making the shifters now wireless doesn't make it compatible, but axs is full wireless and they just forgot about the old stuff.
I just see more ewaste in a few years, and here they had a great opportunity to create an electronic sustainable groupset, where you could upgrade the individual components to get more gears.
And if in a few years you break something, you might not be able to get your bike to work without replacing the full groupset, because spares will not be available anymore. Just like with 10 speed Di2 right now, which sure, it is not a particularly modern product, but there is no excues for bicycles bought about a decade ago to just become unrepairable.

Treptay
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:23 am

by Treptay

blaugrana wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:55 pm
Treptay wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:59 pm
I am a tech savvy person, and I still don't see the point of di2 and axs in it's current implementation.
The whole point of di2 and axs, in my opinion, should be the upgradeability and longevity.
The old 11 speed di2 stuff and the new 12speed di2 is only not compatible becuse they want to sell you the new stuff.
If they told me, "here, buy these expensive shifters, but we will support them for 3 groupset generations, you can upgrade your cassette, and chain for 12 speed and 13 speed later on, but the shifters and brakes will work", then I would consider buying it. You could argue that making the shifters now wireless doesn't make it compatible, but axs is full wireless and they just forgot about the old stuff.
I just see more ewaste in a few years, and here they had a great opportunity to create an electronic sustainable groupset, where you could upgrade the individual components to get more gears.
And if in a few years you break something, you might not be able to get your bike to work without replacing the full groupset, because spares will not be available anymore. Just like with 10 speed Di2 right now, which sure, it is not a particularly modern product, but there is no excues for bicycles bought about a decade ago to just become unrepairable.
I think that there was a thread here from a guy that bought the old 11 speed sram red etap a few months before the launch of the new one, and after 2 years the shifter broke, and sram didn't have any replacements.
I'm just sad that we won't see any imrovements to rim brake bikes, I really wanted my next bike to be direct mount rim brake, but seems that's not really an option anymore.

AW84
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:04 am

by AW84

rollinslow wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:26 pm
AW84 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:20 pm
Seems Shimano is in cahoots with the bike brands to render rim brakes obsolete, make us all buy a new bike. The majority of bikes on the road to this day are still rim, and with entry level and mid-range bikes creeping into the $7-10k range, you're going to see a lot more people keep/upgrade the bike they have. Surely Shimano recognizes the upgrade and repair market for these bikes, but it seems they have other motives.
Exactly. Shimano says consumers wanted 20+ lb bikes, disc, electronic and wanted to pay more as well. The reality is, they just decided this is how it will be and gave people no choice. Hopefully Campagnolo capitalizes on this moment because Chorus 12 mech is a far better groupset overall and it's made in Europe.
Tells you all you need to know about how vain and gullible cyclists are. With likely mutliple fully functioning modern bikes in the garage already, they willfully pay more for a heavier bike that is harder to work on, because FOMO. It's worth noting that bikes and components only cost what they cost because people continue to pay the price they charge. If you stop, they'll stop.

pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Treptay wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:39 pm
blaugrana wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:55 pm
Treptay wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:59 pm
I am a tech savvy person, and I still don't see the point of di2 and axs in it's current implementation.
The whole point of di2 and axs, in my opinion, should be the upgradeability and longevity.
The old 11 speed di2 stuff and the new 12speed di2 is only not compatible becuse they want to sell you the new stuff.
If they told me, "here, buy these expensive shifters, but we will support them for 3 groupset generations, you can upgrade your cassette, and chain for 12 speed and 13 speed later on, but the shifters and brakes will work", then I would consider buying it. You could argue that making the shifters now wireless doesn't make it compatible, but axs is full wireless and they just forgot about the old stuff.
I just see more ewaste in a few years, and here they had a great opportunity to create an electronic sustainable groupset, where you could upgrade the individual components to get more gears.
And if in a few years you break something, you might not be able to get your bike to work without replacing the full groupset, because spares will not be available anymore. Just like with 10 speed Di2 right now, which sure, it is not a particularly modern product, but there is no excues for bicycles bought about a decade ago to just become unrepairable.
I think that there was a thread here from a guy that bought the old 11 speed sram red etap a few months before the launch of the new one, and after 2 years the shifter broke, and sram didn't have any replacements.
I'm just sad that we won't see any imrovements to rim brake bikes, I really wanted my next bike to be direct mount rim brake, but seems that's not really an option anymore.
I'm in that bought. On that regard, praise sram because they made 12spd shifters work with 11spd dérailleurs. In that topic, shimano just said "screw you all".

With that said, I can't find any 12spd sram shifter available. I'll have to wait 4-6month for a new one... :noidea:

petromyzon
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

Cyclingtips are reporting 300g or ~10% lighter than Rival, which is quite significant IMO

EDIT: 120g lighter. Still significant despite my mistake.

EDIT 2: I don't think it is 50% more expensive. More like 10%, and who knows where the street prices will settle.
Last edited by petromyzon on Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

petromyzon wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:13 pm
Cyclingtips are reporting 300g or ~10% lighter than Rival, which is quite significant IMO
Also 50% more expensive

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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

Just a reminder that rim v disc debates have a specific thread: The Great Braking Debate Thread (Disc/Rim/Cantilever/Fixie/InsertNewTechHere)
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app

So don’t start any here please. Thanks

ABogle
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:21 pm

by ABogle

Calm down about the price, Simon on GCN's latest video said it was only a "slight premium" on the old mechanical version (which is odd as I bought that for £430 brand new a year ago on wiggle)

petromyzon
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

105 is so popular that street prices are usually very competitive compared to list.
If I had to bet there will be rim brake and mechanical versions next year to cover all bases and markets but they've chosen to release this as a special 40th birthday event.
I wonder if GRX will be 1x12 only after this - seems logical?!

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Roel W
Posts: 943
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:39 am
Location: Belgium

by Roel W

105 rim brake is dead but what about 105 mechanical?
Still a lot of frames have a mechanical option.

105 electronic and disc only is no surprise to me: Bike companies can use the same expensive moulds with hydraulic disc brakes and complex hose routings (integrated cockpits,...) and offer the frames to consumer with Durace, Ultegra and 105 groupsets (and of course Rival, Force and Red).
From an OEM point of view, it's a logical evolution.
From a Shimano or Sram point of view also: the electronics of all those groupsets are identical. That easy and efficient to produce.

darrydonds
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:04 am

by darrydonds

AW84 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:01 pm
Tells you all you need to know about how vain and gullible cyclists are. With likely mutliple fully functioning modern bikes in the garage already, they willfully pay more for a heavier bike that is harder to work on, because FOMO. It's worth noting that bikes and components only cost what they cost because people continue to pay the price they charge. If you stop, they'll stop.
Exactly. Why a new bike if your rim-brake-equipped pinnacle of bikes works and works better than those new bikes? Why blame the companies that exist solely to sell stuff?

blaugrana
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 9:49 pm

by blaugrana

ABogle wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:56 pm
Calm down about the price, Simon on GCN's latest video said it was only a "slight premium" on the old mechanical version (which is odd as I bought that for £430 brand new a year ago on wiggle)
Just keep in mind that what GCN did is literaly a Shimano ad, not a journalistic piece. It's right there on the upper right corner of the Youtube thumbnail, somewhere where you won't notice it unless you are looking for it.
Image

It also says "In association with Shimano" in the description, which is way too vague. They should be a lot more transparent with that and clarify what exactly Shimano paid for. If it was just travel expenses to a launch event, that is pretty standard in many industries, but paying for an ad is completely different.

In any case, if when there is a significant release in your industry you accept a paid promotion instead of publishing your actual thoughts on the product, what you do can't really be called journalism. Not for this piece, and not for anything else they publish, because they no credibility and no integrity.

rollinslow
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am
Location: New York

by rollinslow

blaugrana wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:24 pm
ABogle wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:56 pm
Calm down about the price, Simon on GCN's latest video said it was only a "slight premium" on the old mechanical version (which is odd as I bought that for £430 brand new a year ago on wiggle)
Just keep in mind that what GCN did is literaly a Shimano ad, not a journalistic piece. It's right there on the upper right corner of the Youtube thumbnail, somewhere where you won't notice it unless you are looking for it.
Image

It also says "In association with Shimano" in the description, which is way too vague. They should be a lot more transparent with that and clarify what exactly Shimano paid for. If it was just travel expenses to a launch event, that is pretty standard in many industries, but paying for an ad is completely different.

In any case, if when there is a significant release in your industry you accept a paid promotion instead of publishing your actual thoughts on the product, what you do can't really be called journalism. Not for this piece, and not for anything else they publish, because they no credibility and no integrity.
GCN has no credibility basically. That happened a while ago which was disappointing.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Super Record 12
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523

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