105 2x12 - R7170 (R7150) / R7120 (R7100) - di2 / mechanical (MY2024)

[bobones]

It’s also about the way the mech shifts. The firmware in DA/Ultegra is for HG+, whereas 105 is for HG. Just changing the cassette is pointless.

Hmmm, not sure if I believe that. None of the Shimano docs mention HG+ in relation to the RD.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technolo ... -plus.html

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... R8150.html

I stand to be corrected, however.

Edit: actually, FD docs mention HG+ and faster shifting

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... R8150.html

[Karvalo]

It’s also about the way the mech shifts. The firmware in DA/Ultegra is for HG+, whereas 105 is for HG. Just changing the cassette is pointless.

HG+ is about providing shift gates to help the chain move into smaller cogs when it's under high tension. What does firmware have to do with that? Keep in mind HG+ made its debut on a mechanical shifting system and no one was ever told they had to use their thumb in a certain way to get the benefits.

[alexdi]

Looks like a fine group, but I don't expect to see it on anything below $5K. Is there really so much volume in the dentist market to merit three groups at or above that price point? Never mind eTap and whatever Campagnolo is selling these days.

Ribble already has two ultra builds under $4500 USD. They have more endurance builds at even cheaper price points.


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I've never seen a Ribble bike in the US. The overwhelming majority of bikes sold here are not direct-sale.

[Treptay]

Looks like a fine group, but I don't expect to see it on anything below $5K. Is there really so much volume in the dentist market to merit three groups at or above that price point? Never mind eTap and whatever Campagnolo is selling these days.

Ribble already has two ultra builds under $4500 USD. They have more endurance builds at even cheaper price points.


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I've never seen a Ribble bike in the US. The overwhelming majority of bikes sold here are not direct-sale.

Is Ribble sold anywhere else except the UK ?
You can import Ribble bikes into the EU, but then you need to pay extra tax and import fees, basically making them really unatractive.

[satanas]

So, does anyone actually think there's any reason to be interested in this groupset? (I do not.) It's somewhat heavier than Ultegra and seems to have had a lot of useful features removed, plus there's only one option at present: 50x34 + 11-34. They say there might be 52x36 and 11-36 "later" (no ETA), but it appears the 11-28 9200 cassette has been scrapped so I wouldn't hold out too much hope. Then there's actual availability - maybe 2024 if it's not OEM on a new bike?

[Hexsense]

It’s also about the way the mech shifts. The firmware in DA/Ultegra is for HG+, whereas 105 is for HG. Just changing the cassette is pointless.

HG+ is about providing shift gates to help the chain move into smaller cogs when it's under high tension. What does firmware have to do with that? Keep in mind HG+ made its debut on a mechanical shifting system and no one was ever told they had to use their thumb in a certain way to get the benefits.

+1
Nothing on the hand shifting behavior. But it change shifting preference on my legs.
Sram Eagle need me to back off the power delivery a bit while shifting to minimize the shifting crunk and risk of snapping the chain.
Shimano HG+ actually shift better with some decent power than when I soft pedal. So, I no longer soft pedal when shifting regardless of gear (51t to 45t included). This feature alone is well worth the weight penalty over lighter Sram cassette.

On road group with mostly 1t jump, I don't think the difference HG+ made over regular ramp would be that serious to the point one should avoid 105 cassette.

[Ritxis]

Advantages of the front derailleur 105 compared to its older brother

can you change the exterior plate...............

Shimano is starting to publish the technical documents..........

[ultimobici]

It’s also about the way the mech shifts. The firmware in DA/Ultegra is for HG+, whereas 105 is for HG. Just changing the cassette is pointless.

HG+ is about providing shift gates to help the chain move into smaller cogs when it's under high tension. What does firmware have to do with that? Keep in mind HG+ made its debut on a mechanical shifting system and no one was ever told they had to use their thumb in a certain way to get the benefits.

HG+ works in both directions according to Shimano. The way di2 shifts is affected by the ramps & gates on the cassette. It’d be interesting to see if the shifting on Ultegra or Dura Ace is affected by the use of a 105 cassette. You pay for it and I’ll try it out.



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[Karvalo]

HG+ is about providing shift gates to help the chain move into smaller cogs when it's under high tension. What does firmware have to do with that? Keep in mind HG+ made its debut on a mechanical shifting system and no one was ever told they had to use their thumb in a certain way to get the benefits.

HG+ works in both directions according to Shimano.

Right. HG provides shift gates for the chain to move into bigger sprockets (like everything does these days), HG+ adds shift gates for it to go back down.

The way di2 shifts is affected by the ramps & gates on the cassette.

The way any groupset, mechanical or DI2, shifts is affected by the machining on the cassette. That's why they put it there. But it doesn't need the mech to do anything different in order for it to work.

Out of curiosity, can you explain what is it you think the mech has to do in order for HG+ cassettes to be beneficial?

[Hexsense]

Tried mixing HG+ Shimano mtb cassette and groupset with Sram Eagle cassette and shifting bits.

Eagle shifting group + Shimano cassette+Shimano chain shift like full Shimano groupset.

Shimano shifting group + Eagle cassette+ Sram Eagle chaim shift like full Sram groupset.

There are minor differences in how shifter from different brands release the cable when shifting. But overall, cassette+chain dominate how it'd shift. Regardless of shifter and rd.

If you think Shifter+RD have to shift a certain way for HG+ to work, I'm sorry but Shimano 12 speed mtb shifter across the range doesn't even shift the same way.
All 12 speed Deore, SLX, XT, XTR have HG+ and identical cassette shift ramps.
XT and XTR shifter have instant release feature. It release all the 1 gear worth of cable when it click with up shift position down the cassette.
SLX and Deore shifter move more slowly. It release half the cable needed to shift one gear when it click with up shift position down the cassette. Then another half is released when lever return to rest position. So SLX and Deore shift slower and smother (with lighter lever action) than XT and XTR. But both style achieve HG+ shifting regardless of how the RD move.

[ooo]

for MTB transmission shimano used two different terms to brand front and rear technologies:
front tech (chainring and chain) - Dynamic Chain Engagment Plus
rear tech (cassette and chain) - HYPERGLIDE+

for ROAD transmission it is one term for both cassette tech and derailleur tech, is has a new meaning, but they forgot to use "2.0" or "II" in title of term
(similar to HOLLOWTECH II and HOLLOWTECH terms that have very different meaning)

2018 hg+ 1.0 aka "HYPERGLIDE+" (cassette tech) = https://bike.shimano.com/content/dam/productsite/shimano/img/series-lp/xtr/HYPERGLIDE+_v01.mp4
2021 hg+ 2.0 aka "road incarnation of HYPERGLIDE+" = https://www.google.com/search?q="road incarnation of HYPERGLIDE+" (cassette tech + derailleur tech)

Code: Select all

derailleurs  cassette    HG+ 1.0 (cs)   HG+ 2.0 (cs+derr)      
M9100/M6100  M9100/M6100 yes            no                                                                                    
R9250/R8150  R9200/R8100 yes            yes                    
R9250/R8150  R7100       ?? (guess:yes) yes                    
R9250/R8150  CS-HG710-12 ?? (guess:no)  no (extra incompatible??)                                                                
R7150 (di2)  R9200/R8100 yes            no                     
R7150 (di2)  R7100       ?? (guess:yes) no                     
R7150 (di2)  CS-HG710-12 ?? (guess:no)  no                                                                                    
R7100 (mech) R9200/R8100 yes            no                     
R7100 (mech) R7100       ?? (guess:yes) no                     
R7100 (mech) CS-HG710-12 ?? (guess:no)  no                     

So far, journalists are failed to demo actual product capabilities.

[bobones]

Code: Select all

derailleurs  cassette    HG+ 1.0 (cs)   HG+ 2.0 (cs+derr)      
M9100/M6100  M9100/M6100 yes            no                                                                                    
R9250/R8150  R9200/R8100 yes            yes                    
R9250/R8150  R7100       ?? (guess:yes) yes                    
R9250/R8150  CS-HG710-12 ?? (guess:no)  no (extra incompatible??)                                                                
R7150 (di2)  R9200/R8100 yes            no                     
R7150 (di2)  R7100       ?? (guess:yes) no                     
R7150 (di2)  CS-HG710-12 ?? (guess:no)  no                                                                                    
R7100 (mech) R9200/R8100 yes            no                     
R7100 (mech) R7100       ?? (guess:yes) no                     
R7100 (mech) CS-HG710-12 ?? (guess:no)  no                     

So, you are saying the CS-R7100-12 cassette is actually HG+ 2.0 when nothing else mentions HG+ in relation to this cassette?

This table aslo seems to indicate a mechanical 12-speed 105/R7100 groupset exists!?

I get the impression that this HG+ 2.0 (or road incarnation of HG+) refers to front shifting tech rather than RD.

[ooo]

yes, I think combination of ultegra deraileurs + 105 cassette = my guess it is hg+ 2.0 capable

1) cassette geometry of 105/ultegra looks the same, all ramps and holes are the same

2) IF this combo "ultegra deraileurs + 105 cassette" was not capable of hg+ 2.0, then CS-R7100 should not be listed as compatible with ultegra/dura-ace FD/RD, but it is listed as compatible

3) all sprockets except two are listed on EV as interchangable in CS-R7100/CS-R8100

[Ritxis]

yes, I think combination of ultegra deraileurs + 105 cassette = my guess it is hg+ 2.0 capable

1) geometry of 105/ultegra looks the same, all ramps and holes are the same
2) IF this combo "ultegra deraileurs + 105 cassette" was not capable of hg+ 2.0, then CS-R7100 should not be listed as compatible with ultegra/dura-ace FD/RD, but it is listed as compatible

but will there be mechanical derailleurs R7100 in the future??

[Karvalo]

for ROAD transmission it is one term for both cassette tech and derailleur tech,

It isn't. HG+, either road or MTB is just a chain+cassette technology. The Shimano website is just really badly worded sometimes. As an example, you can find every single hydro road lever they make being labelled as Servowave when we know Servowave tech is actually only found on a select few levers.