105 2x12 - R7170 (R7150) / R7120 (R7100) - di2 / mechanical (MY2024)

[Cemicar]

Seems like both CS-R7100 and CS-HG710 are missing the Hyperglide+, one of the biggest features of R9200/R8100. You may be better off buying CS-R8100 anytime, even if your concern is the budget.

[overdriven98]

Seems like both CS-R7100 and CS-HG710 are missing the Hyperglide+, one of the biggest features of R9200/R8100. You may be better off buying CS-R8100 anytime, even if your concern is the budget.

then just get the 8100 cassette and chain, there you go

[dadaist]

Thinking about what will happen with mechanical, and this is what I came up with now:

12 speed will very likely stay electronic. This got nothing to do with R&D, or 'trickle-down', that people often mention here. It's purely marketing. If people want 12 speed, you have to pay for the Di2 version. Same reason there is no rim brake 105, but rim brake Ultegra. Basically trying to increase profits due to price inelasticity. Consumers have shown to buy anyway, no matter the price. So again, if you want 12 speed Di2, either you pay for the discs, meaning you can't upgrade your old frame, or you shell out another 500 bucks for Ultegra.

On the other hand, I assume that either R7000 or R8000 or possibly both will remain in production for quite some time. This again follows SRAM, where the mechanical stuff is still widely available and in production, even though it has been superseded for years now.

I could imagine that they will even offer either old 105 or Ultegra mechanical to OEM manufacturers for quite a few years, just to fill this price point.

The rationale must have been: We have hit peak mechanical shifting. There is very very little to improve. Also, there is not much competition anymore that forces Shimano to keep innovating. The field has moved now to electronic shifting, disc brakes, gravel bikes, e-Bikes. Sure, you can add another cog every 5 to 10 years to road bike groups, but this probably won't keep people excited. So everything modern will be pushed to higher priced levels, while the mid-tier stuff will just be old generations.

This is a strategy shift, as previously everything was updated every 3-5 years, across all levels and production of the old stuff was reduced very quickly. Looking at the lower tier stuff, the strategy shift has actually also been pretty apparent. Tiagra is 7 years old, Sora 6 and Claris 5. There were 2 iterations of 105 and higher stuff in the same time we've had one Tiagra or Sora generation.

The stuff is good enough and people don't really care if it hasn't been updated at the entry level. Now Shimano is betting the same on mid-tier mechanical groups.

[alexdi]

Looks like a fine group, but I don't expect to see it on anything below $5K. Is there really so much volume in the dentist market to merit three groups at or above that price point? Never mind eTap and whatever Campagnolo is selling these days.

[mrbrown4001]

Looks like a fine group, but I don't expect to see it on anything below $5K. Is there really so much volume in the dentist market to merit three groups at or above that price point? Never mind eTap and whatever Campagnolo is selling these days.

Ribble already has two ultra builds under $4500 USD. They have more endurance builds at even cheaper price points.


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[dadaist]

Looks like a fine group, but I don't expect to see it on anything below $5K. Is there really so much volume in the dentist market to merit three groups at or above that price point? Never mind eTap and whatever Campagnolo is selling these days.

Ribble already has two ultra builds under $4500 USD. They have more endurance builds at even cheaper price points.


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Nonetheless, this is extremely expensive. Another data point: Canyon's Ultimate, which is widely regarded as one of the better valued 'real' race bikes sells for 3.5k USD with SRAM Rival, and for 4.3k USD with Ultegra Di2. 105Di2 is going to be somewhere in between, probably 3.7k. However, there seems to be a new Ultimate launching soon, so I could imagine that with new pricing, the Ultimate 105 Di2 will be priced at exactly 4k.

The current rim brake Ultimate 105 is priced at 1800 USD.

I was always under the impression that Dura Ace and Ultegra get lots of media attention and is talked a lot about in forums, but that 90% of amateur riders in the end spend something in the range of 1-3k USD, and this is where the revenue is made. I really wonder what the real numbers are and how Shimano projects that to develop in the future.

[nooski]

105 will be offered in 12sp mechanical version as well, probably later. I have no info about rim brakes though.

[dadaist]

A few things that I learned from the GCN video and others:

- 105 FD takes over the design of 8050/9150 FDs, so it's a generation behind the current Ultegra, Dura Ace
- the button on top of the hood is gone
- Apparently cassette design (Hyperglide+, different ramps?) is simpler than Ultegra, Dura Ace

So, this breaks with the hierarchy of 7000/8000/9100, where the three levels were mechanically 95% the same, apart from some bearings and the brakes. Seems like Shimano opened the gap between 105 and Ultegra slightly.

[dadaist]

105 will be offered in 12sp mechanical version as well, probably later. I have no info about rim brakes though.

Where does that info come from?

[Treptay]

A few things that I learned from the GCN video and others:

- 105 FD takes over the design of 8050/9150 FDs, so it's a generation behind the current Ultegra, Dura Ace
- the button on top of the hood is gone
- Apparently cassette design (Hyperglide+, different ramps?) is simpler than Ultegra, Dura Ace

So, this breaks with the hierarchy of 7000/8000/9100, where the three levels were mechanically 95% the same, apart from some bearings and the brakes. Seems like Shimano opened the gap between 105 and Ultegra slightly.

And the 105 has got no ports for the sprint/climbing shifters. And no servo wave breaking thingy. They just simplfied everything to make it cheaper and make ultegra look better. However, most of the stuff is unecessary for the average consumer anyways

[WorkonSunday]

A few things that I learned from the GCN video and others:

- 105 FD takes over the design of 8050/9150 FDs, so it's a generation behind the current Ultegra, Dura Ace
- the button on top of the hood is gone
- Apparently cassette design (Hyperglide+, different ramps?) is simpler than Ultegra, Dura Ace

So, this breaks with the hierarchy of 7000/8000/9100, where the three levels were mechanically 95% the same, apart from some bearings and the brakes. Seems like Shimano opened the gap between 105 and Ultegra slightly.

yea i saw that gcn video and the whole hyperglide/HG+ thing is very vague. but my understanding is that to fully utilise hyperglide+ , not just the cassette but the chain and chainset also have to be designed for it. i guesss that's why they wouldnt fully commit to say it's ok or not ok.

[bobones]

For road, HG+ is mainly about the cassette and the smoother shifts to smaller cogs rather than improved chain retention. All the CN-Mx100 chains are optimized for HG+ and there are no HG+ chainsets for road where chain retention on front rings is less of a problem.

With an RRP of £69.99, at least the CS-R7100 11-34 cassette cassette is keenly priced compared to Ultegra, and AXS in particular. AXS cassette availability seems to be almost non-existent at the minute and even used cassettes are selling for double the retail value on eBay.

[jeffy]

105 FD takes over the design of 8050/9150 FDs, so it's a generation behind the current Ultegra, Dura Ace

this is one of the most interesting things. he said "you'll recognise the shifting from the previous generation". i wonder if this means that if you upgrade to an 8100 FD then you get noticeably better front shifts?

My impression from the ult/DA launch reviews was theat the front shifting was noticably better.

we can have the usual 'which is the best mix & match' conversations for weight and performance, but sounds like cassette and FD might be the highest priority to upgrade ??

[ultimobici]

A few things that I learned from the GCN video and others:

- 105 FD takes over the design of 8050/9150 FDs, so it's a generation behind the current Ultegra, Dura Ace
- the button on top of the hood is gone
- Apparently cassette design (Hyperglide+, different ramps?) is simpler than Ultegra, Dura Ace

So, this breaks with the hierarchy of 7000/8000/9100, where the three levels were mechanically 95% the same, apart from some bearings and the brakes. Seems like Shimano opened the gap between 105 and Ultegra slightly.

yea i saw that gcn video and the whole hyperglide/HG+ thing is very vague. but my understanding is that to fully utilise hyperglide+ , not just the cassette but the chain and chainset also have to be designed for it. i guesss that's why they wouldnt fully commit to say it's ok or not ok.

It’s also about the way the mech shifts. The firmware in DA/Ultegra is for HG+, whereas 105 is for HG. Just changing the cassette is pointless.


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[jeffy]

sounds like 11 speed di2 shifting performance on a 12 speed 105. not neccessarily a bad thing, but an interesting approach to the 105>Ultegra differentiation from Shinano