105 2x12 - R7170 (R7150) / R7120 (R7100) - di2 / mechanical (MY2024)

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Cemicar
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:40 am

by Cemicar

Mocs123 wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 5:03 pm
I wonder how Shimano will differentiate 105 Di2 from Ultegra and Dura-Ace Di2? The difference has largely come down to weight savings in the past, but as bikes tend to move from weight focused to aero focused, it doesn't seem like that is as big of factor in sales as it was a few years ago. I currently have one bike with Dura Ace Di2 (9050) and one with Ultegra Di2 (6870) but would have no reason to spend more than 105 Di2 as long as it wasn't a weight weenie build.
Besides the weight, levers have much factors to degrade;

- no hood button
- no sw-rs801 port
- no synchro shift
- no free stroke adjustment
- no aero hood shape (yet shorter reach, like Rival eTap AXS, or something like ST-R7175)
- no flare

All of them are just meh so most people will be okay with 105 Di2.

Also I'm pretty sure FC-R7100 has no PM option.

by Weenie


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waltthizzney
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:35 pm

by waltthizzney

CyclingGiraffe wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 1:02 am
RDY wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 1:43 pm
Virtually never seen Ultegra and DA mechanical parts out of stock. Di2 on the other hand always sold out very fast. DA mech stock hung around for ages, and tellingly quite a few DA 12s mech kits from day 1 are still unsold at some some retailers. I can't imagine anywhere in the world has day one DA 12s di2 still available unless it was purposely held back.

New Ultegra and DA mechanical groupsets make no sense. New 105 makes very little sense when Ultegra & 105 11s continue to serve the relevant segment.
I don't know about brick and mortar stores, but until fairly recently, many components of DA mechanical 9100 were very difficult to source through the big retailers (Competitive Cyclist, Excel, Performance, etc.), particularly braze-on front derailleurs and shifter/brake levers for both rim and disc brakes. E-bay prices were over retail. Even now, 9100 shifter/brake levers are going for more than the 9150 shifter/brake levers at places like Competitive Cyclist.

I also don't see how new 12-speed Ultegra (and especially 105) mechanical makes no sense. My impression is that both of those groups end up on a lot of complete bikes sold to people who don't race and don't particularly want to be bothered with charging their bikes just so they can shift -- these riders aren't in it for the gear, per se, but still want a nice bike for moderately long, relatively fast weekend group rides (say, 50-70 miles on a Saturday morning). I know quite a few people like that, and it sure seems that 8000 Ultegra mechanical/disc is the most popular setup among them. Also, while historically people like to pair Dura Ace with Ultegra, my impression dating back to the 7700/6500/5500 era is that Ultegra and 105 usually are more similar to each other than Dura Ace is to Ultegra, though that may have shifted some in the Di2 era.
its quite the opposite, most people who I know who races want the cheapest "best" gear, E Shifting is a headache to most and makes zero difference racing. mechanical ultegra or 105 now even always hit that sweet spot.

ooo
Posts: 1590
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

new non-series 12-speed cassette 11-36:

11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
'

Hexsense
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

24-28-32-36 sound terrible.
That's 16%, 14%, 12% ratio change respectively.
Ideally, I'd want it to be ~ 12%, 14% then 16% on the last jump rather than the other way around.

24-27-31-36 would achieve 13%, 15%, 16%

jlok
Posts: 2400
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Hexsense wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:33 pm
24-28-32-36 sound terrible.
That's 16%, 14%, 12% ratio change respectively.
Ideally, I'd want it to be ~ 12%, 14% then 16% on the last jump rather than the other way around.

24-27-31-36 would achieve 13%, 15%, 16%
That makes sense. Not sure the Shimano RD movement would match this tho.
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

jih
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:54 pm

by jih

ooo wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:23 pm
new non-series 12-speed cassette 11-36:

11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
Where can we find details of this cassette? Is it for the road freehub body?

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

ooo wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:23 pm
new non-series 12-speed cassette 11-36:

11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
on a gravel or all road bike this will be great!

HG interface?

ooo
Posts: 1590
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

11-36T 12s non-series cassette have "HG" text in model name
it is priced in the middle of 105 and ultegra 12s cassettes
it is 105 level, expected to be announced with 105 group
'

SystemShock
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:03 am
Location: USA

by SystemShock

Hexsense wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:33 pm
24-28-32-36 sound terrible.
That's 16%, 14%, 12% ratio change respectively.
Ideally, I'd want it to be ~ 12%, 14% then 16% on the last jump rather than the other way around.

24-27-31-36 would achieve 13%, 15%, 16%
That would be better for 11-36, yes.
.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Hexsense wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:33 pm
24-28-32-36 sound terrible.
That's 16%, 14%, 12% ratio change respectively.
Ideally, I'd want it to be ~ 12%, 14% then 16% on the last jump rather than the other way around.

24-27-31-36 would achieve 13%, 15%, 16%
On paper, I thought so too and I was really hesitant about trying out a Shimano 11-42 11 speed cassette on my 1x flat-bar conversion. In the real world it works very well.

That cassette follows the same progression:

11 Speed 11-42: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-42

12 Speed 11-36: 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36

I wonder if Shimano is planning to introduce a sub-compact crank at 105 level? Maybe an 48/32 (to differentiate from GRX sub-compact options). That, in combination with this cassette, would be a solution for pretty much all drop-bar riding for most people on road and gravel.

SystemShock
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:03 am
Location: USA

by SystemShock

robertbb wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 1:19 am
Hexsense wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:33 pm
24-28-32-36 sound terrible.
That's 16%, 14%, 12% ratio change respectively.
Ideally, I'd want it to be ~ 12%, 14% then 16% on the last jump rather than the other way around.

24-27-31-36 would achieve 13%, 15%, 16%
On paper, I thought so too and I was really hesitant about trying out a Shimano 11-42 11 speed cassette on my 1x flat-bar conversion. In the real world it works very well.

That cassette follows the same progression:

11 Speed 11-42: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-42

12 Speed 11-36: 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36

I wonder if Shimano is planning to introduce a sub-compact crank at 105 level? Maybe an 48/32 (to differentiate from GRX sub-compact options). That, in combination with this cassette, would be a solution for pretty much all drop-bar riding for most people on road and gravel.
For 11-42, 12- or 13-spd would be lots better than the 11-spd. It's just such a huge span.

Far as a possible upcoming Shimano 48/32 crank goes, I certainly hope so. 32t is the very smallest ring that fits on a compact crank 110 BCD... albeit a compact with some minor modifications.

I really think 48/32 and, eventually, 46/30 are poised to 'take over' road for most riders in the coming years...
.

ooo
Posts: 1590
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

I don't see any 12s 4X-3X road fd/cranks with narrow 44.5mm chainline/148mm q-factor

Code: Select all

             2x11-mech 2x11-di2 2x12-mech 2x12-di2
dura-ace fd |. 50-55T | 50-55T | . . . . | 50-54T |
 ultegra fd |. 46-53T | 46-53T | . . . . | 50-52T |
 . . 105 fd |. 46-53T |. . . . |. 50-54T | 50-52T |
Looks like 12s 4X-3X fd/cranks will be using road boost aka grx 47.Xmm chainline/15Xmm q-factor
SystemShock wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 1:40 am
I really think 48/32 and, eventually, 46/30 are poised to 'take over' road for most riders in the coming years...
Then, why 12-3X cassettes are not popular with compact cranks? 12T/11T ≈ 50T/46T ≈ 52T/48T

11s 12-34T Miche CALP1BS123410 uses same 12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30-34 cogs as Shimano 12s 11-34T
'

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

ooo wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:39 am
SystemShock wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 1:40 am
I really think 48/32 and, eventually, 46/30 are poised to 'take over' road for most riders in the coming years...
Then, why 12-3X cassettes are not popular with compact cranks? 12T/11T ≈ 50T/46T ≈ 52T/48T

11s 12-34T Miche CALP1BS123410 uses same 12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30-34 cogs as Shimano 12s 11-34T
Because the big 3, Shimano, SRAM and Campy simply stopped making them.

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

robertbb wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:54 am
ooo wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:39 am
SystemShock wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 1:40 am
I really think 48/32 and, eventually, 46/30 are poised to 'take over' road for most riders in the coming years...
Then, why 12-3X cassettes are not popular with compact cranks? 12T/11T ≈ 50T/46T ≈ 52T/48T

11s 12-34T Miche CALP1BS123410 uses same 12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30-34 cogs as Shimano 12s 11-34T
Because the big 3, Shimano, SRAM and Campy simply stopped making them.
The perception is that cassettes where the smallest cog is 12t don't make much sense with chainrings smaller than 53t. That is why the industry moved to 11t cassettes at the same time as moving to 52/36 and 50/34 chainrings.

The bet is that now the industry will move to 48/32 and 46/30 chainrings in conjunction with 10t and maybe 9t cassettes. SRAM has tried, but Shimano and Campy haven't followed for road groups.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Maybe for the pointy end of competitive road racing, but almost certainly not for weekend warrior sportive types and JRA.

I don't believe that there's anything in it other than manufacturers wanting to 1. reduce SKU's, and (if I put my tin foil hat on) 2. shorten the lifespan of consumable cassettes to sell more of 'em.

by Weenie


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