New Michelin Power Cup Tubeless: GP5K S TR competitor

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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:21 am
Very odd. I just mounted some black 25s to Bontrager Aeolus RSL 37s (21mm internal, 28mm external) and at 100psi they are already ~28.3mm wide. 28.5mm in some spots. Weight = 255g and 265g.

Sidenote: Reserve Fillmore valves are very impressive.

After one day, 28.8mm at 80psi, 29.3mm at 100psi.

The latter is over the max sidewall rating of the tire. On my sample it lists 15c (instead of 17c) rims up to 116psi and 19c rims up to 87psi. By modern standards, this should be listed as a 27mm tire or even as 28mm tire.

pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:43 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:21 am
Very odd. I just mounted some black 25s to Bontrager Aeolus RSL 37s (21mm internal, 28mm external) and at 100psi they are already ~28.3mm wide. 28.5mm in some spots. Weight = 255g and 265g.

Sidenote: Reserve Fillmore valves are very impressive.

After one day, 28.8mm at 80psi, 29.3mm at 100psi.

The latter is over the max sidewall rating of the tire. On my sample it lists 15c (instead of 17c) rims up to 116psi and 19c rims up to 87psi. By modern standards, this should be listed as a 27mm tire or even as 28mm tire.
And if they had done it they would really be noticed for releasing a really light set of tires.

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jlok
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by jlok

No wonder it wins (maybe?) the rolling resistance war. It's 28mm actually.
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I mounted the tires two days ago and raced on them today. Safe to say I'm leaning quite a bit past the tread cap since they're 29mm on Bontrager Aeolus RSL 37s.

Note the darkened area and a couple of tiny nicks already. The top of the tread cap is dusty because the parking lot was dirt.
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IMG_5833.jpeg

pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

A 25c tire on a 21ID measuring 29mm is absurd.

alanyu
Posts: 1499
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

It's the same real width as the old pro one micro skin, which measured 29.2 mm on my 21c rims after 1000 km and settled there. I much much much prefer the dimension of GP5K S TR, but the grip of Power Cup is better based on reviews and reports. I'm still not sure if I should return them.

pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

alanyu wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:36 am
It's the same real width as the old pro one micro skin, which measured 29.2 mm on my 21c rims after 1000 km and settled there. I much much much prefer the dimension of GP5K S TR, but the grip of Power Cup is better based on reviews and reports. I'm still not sure if I should return them.
As long as these reviews/reports are comparing 29's to 29's. I guess if you compare a 25c gp5k str with these "25c" Michelin that are really some 28c tire, they end up winning that grip/rr test.

alanyu
Posts: 1499
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

pmprego wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:50 am
alanyu wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:36 am
It's the same real width as the old pro one micro skin, which measured 29.2 mm on my 21c rims after 1000 km and settled there. I much much much prefer the dimension of GP5K S TR, but the grip of Power Cup is better based on reviews and reports. I'm still not sure if I should return them.
As long as these reviews/reports are comparing 29's to 29's. I guess if you compare a 25c gp5k str with these "25c" Michelin that are really some 28c tire, they end up winning that grip/rr test.
But there is no "23c" Power Cup TLR, which should be an ideal size. Power Cup is several euros cheaper than 5000 S TR, and also has a slightly better puncture resistance.

Based on my experience with 5000 TL, which made me slip out of a corner during a crit, I'm now avoiding 5000 S TR in crits. They are on my Gran Fondo wheels.

Nickldn
Posts: 1863
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

Many manufacturers do not make 23c tubeless tyres.

I guess it's due to road pressures being too high for it to work reliabily.

Even most 25c tubeless tyres come up much wider, which means they have a higher volume than required for a 'true' 25c tyre.

We know the GP5000S TRs are probably most true to size, but Conti don't make a 23c version.
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Lina
Posts: 1055
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

alanyu wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:04 am
pmprego wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:50 am
alanyu wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:36 am
It's the same real width as the old pro one micro skin, which measured 29.2 mm on my 21c rims after 1000 km and settled there. I much much much prefer the dimension of GP5K S TR, but the grip of Power Cup is better based on reviews and reports. I'm still not sure if I should return them.
As long as these reviews/reports are comparing 29's to 29's. I guess if you compare a 25c gp5k str with these "25c" Michelin that are really some 28c tire, they end up winning that grip/rr test.
But there is no "23c" Power Cup TLR, which should be an ideal size. Power Cup is several euros cheaper than 5000 S TR, and also has a slightly better puncture resistance.

Based on my experience with 5000 TL, which made me slip out of a corner during a crit, I'm now avoiding 5000 S TR in crits. They are on my Gran Fondo wheels.
The TL and TR are a completely different tire. And just because Michelin doesn't make a version which is equivalent to the 25 mm doesn't mean you should compare it to the 25 mm TR, when in reality it's closest to the 28 mm version.

alanyu
Posts: 1499
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

Lina wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:46 am
alanyu wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:04 am
pmprego wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:50 am
alanyu wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:36 am
It's the same real width as the old pro one micro skin, which measured 29.2 mm on my 21c rims after 1000 km and settled there. I much much much prefer the dimension of GP5K S TR, but the grip of Power Cup is better based on reviews and reports. I'm still not sure if I should return them.
As long as these reviews/reports are comparing 29's to 29's. I guess if you compare a 25c gp5k str with these "25c" Michelin that are really some 28c tire, they end up winning that grip/rr test.
But there is no "23c" Power Cup TLR, which should be an ideal size. Power Cup is several euros cheaper than 5000 S TR, and also has a slightly better puncture resistance.

Based on my experience with 5000 TL, which made me slip out of a corner during a crit, I'm now avoiding 5000 S TR in crits. They are on my Gran Fondo wheels.
The TL and TR are a completely different tire. And just because Michelin doesn't make a version which is equivalent to the 25 mm doesn't mean you should compare it to the 25 mm TR, when in reality it's closest to the 28 mm version.
Yes, 5000 TL and 5000 S TR are not the same. However, even Continental doesn't claim that S TR has a better grip :noidea:.

What they claim is 1, lighter > true; 2, faster > vague ; 3, increased puncture resistance > only true for sidewall :noidea:

On the 5000 S TR thread, there are already posts about grip such as "average at most". I surely won't risk myself in slipping out of corner again.

Even comparing 25c Power Cup TLR and 28c S TR, Power Cup TLR still wins puncture resistance, and the grip by BRR (though I don't trust their grip test due ot their protocol). Moreoever, there is no other tubeless tyres in the same class: fast, a reasonable mileage and puncture resistance, or I may just miss some good stuff and you can point them to me. :beerchug:

pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

My problem seems to be the size of them. I wanted a tire to remain within the 30mm measured. Apparently you get this with a 25c but it would be crazy to put a 25c on a 25 ID :mrgreen:

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

It's hard to evaluate dry grip by feel, but it does seem quite good. Then again it's definitely not apples-to-apples since I'm coming from tires that barely measure over 26mm on my ENVE SES 5.6s to tires that measure over 29mm on my Bontrager Aeolus RSL 37s.

I'll probably end up swapping these tires to the narrower ENVEs because the exposed sidewalls really are a problem.

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C36
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

pmprego wrote:My problem seems to be the size of them. I wanted a tire to remain within the 30mm measured. Apparently you get this with a 25c but it would be crazy to put a 25c on a 25 ID :mrgreen:
Regardless the brand. How much sense does it make wanting sub 29mm tires on a 25c ID… on top of my head that’s 6 sizes passed the Etrto norm. I get the norm, even 2020 version appears conservative, but the reality is that both rim and tire manufacturers have “very wide” tolerances and can’t ensure all tires will be safe on all rims when you are that far off the norm…

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pmprego
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:43 pm
It's hard to evaluate dry grip by feel, but it does seem quite good. Then again it's definitely not apples-to-apples since I'm coming from tires that barely measure over 26mm on my ENVE SES 5.6s to tires that measure over 29mm on my Bontrager Aeolus RSL 37s.

I'll probably end up swapping these tires to the narrower ENVEs because the exposed sidewalls really are a problem.
Tires to go on a straight line, uh

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