New Michelin Power Cup Tubeless: GP5K S TR competitor

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BigBoyND
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Location: Berlin, DE

by BigBoyND

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:19 am
BigBoyND wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:00 am

Take a look at BRR. It's nearly the same as a % of case width, not in absolute terms.

Tires behave differently when inflated. A 25mm Corsa Speed G2.0 measures something like 27.5mm on the RSL 37s. My Power Cups measure 29.5mm. That 2mm difference in diameter equates to roughly 6mm in circumference. With a vulcanized tire, I would bet the portion of the casing under the tread stretches less than the thinner sidewalls also.
The casing size being 2mm wider for an equivalent nominal size is a separate topic (just size down for Michelin like you would for running shoes that run big). So is whether the tread section stretches less (it does), since that applies to both tires.

The point I was making was that for any given measured size, the % of tread coverage between these two tires is nearly the same. So the max lean angle will be the same too. If the Corsa is fine in that regard, then so is this tire.

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alanyu
Posts: 1506
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

BigBoyND wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:38 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:19 am
BigBoyND wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:00 am

Take a look at BRR. It's nearly the same as a % of case width, not in absolute terms.

Tires behave differently when inflated. A 25mm Corsa Speed G2.0 measures something like 27.5mm on the RSL 37s. My Power Cups measure 29.5mm. That 2mm difference in diameter equates to roughly 6mm in circumference. With a vulcanized tire, I would bet the portion of the casing under the tread stretches less than the thinner sidewalls also.
The point I was making was that for any given measured size, the % of tread coverage between these two tires is nearly the same. So the max lean angle will be the same too.
Your point is wrong. Max leaning angle depands on tread width to real width ratio instead of tread coverage which is tread width to casing width ratio, if both forms a similar shape after inflation.

pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

BigBoyND wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:38 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:19 am
BigBoyND wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:00 am

Take a look at BRR. It's nearly the same as a % of case width, not in absolute terms.

Tires behave differently when inflated. A 25mm Corsa Speed G2.0 measures something like 27.5mm on the RSL 37s. My Power Cups measure 29.5mm. That 2mm difference in diameter equates to roughly 6mm in circumference. With a vulcanized tire, I would bet the portion of the casing under the tread stretches less than the thinner sidewalls also.
The casing size being 2mm wider for an equivalent nominal size is a separate topic (just size down for Michelin like you would for running shoes that run big). So is whether the tread section stretches less (it does), since that applies to both tires.

The point I was making was that for any given measured size, the % of tread coverage between these two tires is nearly the same. So the max lean angle will be the same too. If the Corsa is fine in that regard, then so is this tire.
So, should one use a 25c on a 25id? It's measured width would be something like 29.5mm. I bet the sidewalls would touch the ground the moment one would lean to any side.

WorkonSunday
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:39 pm

by WorkonSunday

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:05 am
Michelin front/ Conti back however doesn't sound like the right way of doing it. At least not the fastest way
shouldnt it be the other way round, with conti front and mich at the back?

conti has wider tread, less likely to slide, you want that on the front. with rear sliding, you can still save it most of the time, front sliding, no so much. the setup is like mtb with aggressive tread at the front and semi-slick at the back.
conti has more aero tread pattern, good on the front. mich is mostly slick, so no so good on the front.
mich has better puncture protection, and makes more sense going onto the back.
Some say pour 10ml water out of your bottle to save that last bit of the weight. Sorry, i go one step further, i tend to the rider off my bikes. :thumbup:
n+1...14 last time i checked, but i lost count :mrgreen:

BigBoyND
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Location: Berlin, DE

by BigBoyND

pmprego wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:13 am
So, should one use a 25c on a 25id? It's measured width would be something like 29.5mm. I bet the sidewalls would touch the ground the moment one would lean to any side.
Obviously not a good idea and I'm not suggesting that's what you should do unless you're already using a Corsa that measures 29.5mm. All I'm saying the tread coverage on this tire is the same as the Corsa.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

BigBoyND wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:38 am

The casing size being 2mm wider for an equivalent nominal size is a separate topic (just size down for Michelin like you would for running shoes that run big). So is whether the tread section stretches less (it does), since that applies to both tires.

The point I was making was that for any given measured size, the % of tread coverage between these two tires is nearly the same. So the max lean angle will be the same too. If the Corsa is fine in that regard, then so is this tire.

I can’t size down to a version that doesn’t exist. There is no “23mm” Power Cup TLR.

And no, you can’t wave your hand and say a vulcanized tire wrapped a certain way and cottonwall tire will stretch in the same manner. It’s pretty clear that they don’t.

The measured width of the tire when not mounted according to BRR only differed by 1mm.

BigBoyND
Posts: 1349
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Location: Berlin, DE

by BigBoyND

alanyu wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:01 am
Your point is wrong. Max leaning angle depands on tread width to real width ratio instead of tread coverage which is tread width to casing width ratio, if both forms a similar shape after inflation.
If you're going to tell someone they're wrong, maybe fully read and process what they said first.

To your point: Corsa and Cup shapes are nearly the same, if not identical. When you buy the tire size (whether nominal 25mm in one tire or 28mm in another) that gets you whatever inflated width you want, the same tread:casing ratio will give you the same max lean angle.

Maybe the Cup doesn't have enough tread for crits, but then neither does the Corsa. All I'm saying is, I find it odd that it's such a major topic for this tire when it isn't for the Corsa. Either they both have enough tread or neither does. Since the Corsa has worked fine and Michelin doesn't release products without testing, this "issue" is overblown.

BigBoyND
Posts: 1349
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Location: Berlin, DE

by BigBoyND

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:19 am
I can’t size down to a version that doesn’t exist. There is no “23mm” Power Cup TLR.

And no, you can’t wave your hand and say a vulcanized tire wrapped a certain way and cottonwall tire will stretch in the same manner. It’s pretty clear that they don’t.

The measured width of the tire when not mounted according to BRR only differed by 1mm.
Yes seems pretty obvious you can't buy tires sizes that aren't available.

To your point about stretching, I'm not waving my hand about anything. Yes, vulcanized stretches less. But the casing is 1mm wider and the measured with is also just 1mm wider and that's at 100psi which no one is running. So the stretch difference isn't significant enough to affect lean angle by any tangible amount.

alanyu
Posts: 1506
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

BigBoyND wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:27 am
alanyu wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:01 am
Your point is wrong. Max leaning angle depands on tread width to real width ratio instead of tread coverage which is tread width to casing width ratio, if both forms a similar shape after inflation.
If you're going to tell someone they're wrong, maybe fully read and process what they said first.

To your point: Corsa and Cup shapes are nearly the same, if not identical. When you buy the tire size (whether nominal 25mm in one tire or 28mm in another) that gets you whatever inflated width you want, the same tread:casing ratio will give you the same max lean angle.

Maybe the Cup doesn't have enough tread for crits, but then neither does the Corsa. All I'm saying is, I find it odd that it's such a major topic for this tire when it isn't for the Corsa. Either they both have enough tread or neither does. Since the Corsa has worked fine and Michelin doesn't release products without testing, this "issue" is overblown.
Do you really understand what does "tread width to real width ratio instead of tread coverage" which I poated mean? :noidea:

aeroisnteverything
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by aeroisnteverything

BigBoyND wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:27 am
alanyu wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:01 am
Your point is wrong. Max leaning angle depands on tread width to real width ratio instead of tread coverage which is tread width to casing width ratio, if both forms a similar shape after inflation.
If you're going to tell someone they're wrong, maybe fully read and process what they said first.

To your point: Corsa and Cup shapes are nearly the same, if not identical. When you buy the tire size (whether nominal 25mm in one tire or 28mm in another) that gets you whatever inflated width you want, the same tread:casing ratio will give you the same max lean angle.

Maybe the Cup doesn't have enough tread for crits, but then neither does the Corsa. All I'm saying is, I find it odd that it's such a major topic for this tire when it isn't for the Corsa. Either they both have enough tread or neither does. Since the Corsa has worked fine and Michelin doesn't release products without testing, this "issue" is overblown.
Like I said above, I think comparison with Corsa Speed, which is a TT tyre is misplaced. It's a TT tyre and is inherently compromised. Has no puncture protection at all - just casing and tread.

Michelin is a competitor to Conti GP5000, which is a nice, fast, and puncture resistant race tyre. Narrow tread is an issue in that context because it compromises both puncture protection in some cases, as well as grip when leaning (which is when I want the grip). Some of the time it won't be a problem, and some of the time it will. The question to answer is "why buy this tyre over GP 5000?" lacks a compelling answer. Michelin does not, unfortunately have any other trump cards over Conti.

pmprego
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:08 pm
(...)

Michelin is a competitor to Conti GP5000, which is a nice, fast, and puncture resistant race tyre. Narrow tread is an issue in that context because it compromises both puncture protection in some cases, as well as grip when leaning (which is when I want the grip). Some of the time it won't be a problem, and some of the time it will. The question to answer is "why buy this tyre over GP 5000?" lacks a compelling answer. Michelin does not, unfortunately have any other trump cards over Conti.
I just see one: lack of gp5k str availability. I can't find it anywhere in european websites.

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C36
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by C36

A lot of statements that are either wrong or not (yet) supported by any real-word feed-back
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:08 pm
Like I said above, I think comparison with Corsa Speed, which is a TT tyre is misplaced. It's a TT tyre and is inherently compromised. Has no puncture protection at all - just casing and tread.
Where do you get this? I cut tubular and version 1.0 and they had a protective layer, thin, but it was there (and I have probably 5000km on them riding in the alps over the last 2 years without a puncture, statistical value, zero, but saying it's a TT tire only is incorrect).
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:08 pm
Michelin is a competitor to Conti GP5000, which is a nice, fast, and puncture resistant race tyre.
Narrow tread is an issue in that context because it compromises both puncture protection in some cases, as well as grip when leaning (which is when I want the grip). Some of the time it won't be a problem, and some of the time it will.
We are in full speculation mode, very few people did ran them (tobin is one of the fews, ryanw is selling them) and I am not familiar with real-problem-feedbacks. The real feedbacks I have, from Cofidis team and a Continental-pro-team sponsored by Michelin don't mention any of those problems. Let's wait some more feedbacks to come before saying "it will be a problem".
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:08 pm
The question to answer is "why buy this tyre over GP 5000?" lacks a compelling answer. Michelin does not, unfortunately have any other trump cards over Conti.
Better grip, better puncture protection (I leave open the topic of narrow tread), as fast from hysteresys losses but more flexible so likely less impendance losses over poor roads. That's a lot more than any GP5000 contender ever provided.

Aress
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:26 am

by Aress

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:08 pm
Michelin is a competitor to Conti GP5000, which is a nice, fast, and puncture resistant race tyre.
Narrow tread is an issue in that context because it compromises both puncture protection in some cases, as well as grip when leaning (which is when I want the grip). Some of the time it won't be a problem, and some of the time it will.

We are in full speculation mode, very few people did ran them (tobin is one of the fews, ryanw is selling them) and I am not familiar with real-problem-feedbacks. The real feedbacks I have, from Cofidis team and a Continental-pro-team sponsored by Michelin don't mention any of those problems. Let's wait some more feedbacks to come before saying "it will be a problem".
Cofidis are running tubulars which have a tread of 35mm, thats why they dont have any problems

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C36
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by C36

Aress wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:04 pm
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:08 pm
Michelin is a competitor to Conti GP5000, which is a nice, fast, and puncture resistant race tyre.
Narrow tread is an issue in that context because it compromises both puncture protection in some cases, as well as grip when leaning (which is when I want the grip). Some of the time it won't be a problem, and some of the time it will.

We are in full speculation mode, very few people did ran them (tobin is one of the fews, ryanw is selling them) and I am not familiar with real-problem-feedbacks. The real feedbacks I have, from Cofidis team and a Continental-pro-team sponsored by Michelin don't mention any of those problems. Let's wait some more feedbacks to come before saying "it will be a problem".
Cofidis are running tubulars which have a tread of 35mm, thats why they dont have any problems
well, not all the time... first they don't train on tubulars... at Circuit de la sarthe late april, at least one rider had them on its Corima wheels and it was installed on spares bikes at the Dauphine (on the last mountain stage the riders where indeed in tubulars).

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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

C36 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:22 pm
Where do you get this? I cut tubular and version 1.0 and they had a protective layer, thin, but it was there (and I have probably 5000km on them riding in the alps over the last 2 years without a puncture, statistical value, zero, but saying it's a TT tire only is incorrect).
That doesn't sound like Corsa Speed.
Corsa Speed is only 1.8mm thick. Cotton alone is already about 0.85mm thick. So, you probably have 1mm thick rubber. Below 0.7mm average you may start to see through rubber in some thin spots from uneven wear (like where you brake and skid a bit). So, you have about 0.3mm thick rubber to use before it become puncture prone. That won't last two years. Maybe even worn within a few weeks if you ride a lot.

Regular Corsa, on the other hand is beefy 2.8mm thick. That extra 1mm rubber on top makes it worn at least 4x longer. Not considering different rubber which is more durable, grippier but doesn't roll as fast.

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