New Michelin Power Cup Tubeless: GP5K S TR competitor

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Tofast
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:22 am

by Tofast

Are the new michelin cup tires hookless compatible and any restrictions when it comes to inner width?

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C36
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by C36

Latest Etrto norm, confirmed by Michelin that’s what they stick to.

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Hexsense
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Location: USA

by Hexsense

Hmm, according to this ETRTO spec.
25mm tire on 23mm rim should still be okay. 28mm tire on 25mm rim too.

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C36
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by C36

Hexsense wrote:Hmm, according to this ETRTO spec.
25mm tire on 23mm rim should still be okay. 28mm tire on 25mm rim too.
Indeed, more relax than what schwable still has on their website. Not long ago seems that Continental customer services was also using an outdated table.

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choochoo46
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:19 am

by choochoo46

On my Lightbicycle AR56 rear wheel, 30mm external, 23mm internal, the Powercup 28mm tires measure 30.2mm. Not as bad as I was expecting... It's mounted for about a month and has about 250 miles on it. I just got a 25mm powercup for the front wheel.

alanyu
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Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

C36 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:45 pm
Latest Etrto norm, confirmed by Michelin that’s what they stick to.
Strange enough. If Michelin truely sticks to the latest ETRTO, their tire shouldn't be so wide. A tire of nominal width 25c should represent roughly the real width on a 19c rim, but a 25c power cup tlr is ~28 mm on a 19c rim.

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C36
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

alanyu wrote:
C36 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:45 pm
Latest Etrto norm, confirmed by Michelin that’s what they stick to.
Strange enough. If Michelin truely sticks to the latest ETRTO, their tire shouldn't be so wide. A tire of nominal width 25c should represent roughly the real width on a 19c rim, but a 25c power cup tlr is ~28 mm on a 19c rim.
I am not familiar with the entire norm but it starts at 15c, it looks like the labelling is matching this.

alanyu
Posts: 1506
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

C36 wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:19 pm
alanyu wrote:
C36 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:45 pm
Latest Etrto norm, confirmed by Michelin that’s what they stick to.
Strange enough. If Michelin truely sticks to the latest ETRTO, their tire shouldn't be so wide. A tire of nominal width 25c should represent roughly the real width on a 19c rim, but a 25c power cup tlr is ~28 mm on a 19c rim.
I am not familiar with the entire norm but it starts at 15c, it looks like the labelling is matching this.
Another conflict besides the tire width is the label on the TLR sidewall. It doesn't agree with the latest ETRTO as mentioned several pages before. The max pressure (25c TLR) is labelled as 7(6) bar on 17(19) c rim, and the suggestion stops at 19c rim. A esay calculation gets 5 bar max on 21c rim. However, the min pressure is labelled as 5 bar for either width, resulting in no room for >21c rim.

Yoln
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Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

alanyu wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:04 pm
C36 wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:19 pm
alanyu wrote:
C36 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:45 pm
Latest Etrto norm, confirmed by Michelin that’s what they stick to.
Strange enough. If Michelin truely sticks to the latest ETRTO, their tire shouldn't be so wide. A tire of nominal width 25c should represent roughly the real width on a 19c rim, but a 25c power cup tlr is ~28 mm on a 19c rim.
I am not familiar with the entire norm but it starts at 15c, it looks like the labelling is matching this.
Another conflict besides the tire width is the label on the TLR sidewall. It doesn't agree with the latest ETRTO as mentioned several pages before. The max pressure (25c TLR) is labelled as 7(6) bar on 17(19) c rim, and the suggestion stops at 19c rim. A esay calculation gets 5 bar max on 21c rim. However, the min pressure is labelled as 5 bar for either width, resulting in no room for >21c rim.
What is your "simple calculation"? You assume linearity between max. presure and internal rim width?
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Tofast
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:22 am

by Tofast

C36 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:45 pm
Latest Etrto norm, confirmed by Michelin that’s what they stick to.

Image
I may be blind but is there a mention of hookless in the ETRTO?

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Tofast wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:45 am
C36 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:45 pm
Latest Etrto norm, confirmed by Michelin that’s what they stick to.

Image
I may be blind but is there a mention of hookless in the ETRTO?
TSS = Tubeless Straight Sidewall. There is mention, but seemingly incomplete.

pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Hexsense wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:29 pm
Hmm, according to this ETRTO spec.
25mm tire on 23mm rim should still be okay. 28mm tire on 25mm rim too.
So, are you saying that enve, zipp, giant and maybe others when recommending a 28c for a 25id or a 25c for a 23id are following etrto specs?!?! OMG the shock :shock:
That I did not expect. I was honestly convinced that these big name brands were just following some misguided measures and tests that some marketing guy came up when going to take a dump.

Hexsense
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

To be fair, some of those big wheel companies actually recommend those combo before the new ETRTO standard is final. Some start to promote the combo while it's in the draft state.

While some promote way before that. They found from their tests that wide rim+ narrower casing tire works better. And that could influence ETRTO to consider these combo as well. And indeed, they found it safe. That's why ETRTO approve it.

PS. HED promote 23mm tire on 21mm IW rim half decade ago. Cannondale follow suite with Systemsix having 23mm tire on 21mm IW rim from the factory. Yet, updated ETRTO don't approve 23mm tire on 21mm IW rim combo.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

And some tire companies aren’t following the guidelines. Goodyear advises to only use their 25mm tires up to 22C and 28mm tires up to 24C.

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C36
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by C36

And we could add that the labelled size rules are clear as mud. Most brands have their tire width using a single rim reference. Vittoria has a different rim width reference for different tire size… that may be closer to what happen in real life and limit surprises.

Now, 24mm tires are labelled for 17c but 26mm tires labelled for 19c. So what happen on a 24mm tire on a 19c rim? And a 26mm on a 17c? Would they both measure around 25mm?

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Cv
Last edited by C36 on Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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