What do you want to see from Campagnolo 2022-2023?

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zappafile123
Posts: 655
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:24 am

by zappafile123

Noctiluxx wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:13 pm
mgrl wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:52 am
zappafile123 wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:38 pm
  • Make the price competitive - AXS and Dura Ace are now ridiculously priced. WTF, 6k for a groupset? Get stuffed.
Dura Ace and Red do not cost 6k
Dura ace with power meter and rotors is about $5500. Sram at any price is overpriced. :lol:
Current BikeBug prices (an Australian retailer) are:
- $6,054 for 9200
- $5,320 for SRAM (depening on build)
- $5500 for EPS12 DIsc

I did think AXS was more expensive than EPS. It is more expensive than EPS Rim.

For perspective, I bought my first Dura Ace 7800 groupset in 2008 for $1300 aud. The price of a DA groupset has gone up 4.6 times in 14 years. I would love to see an economic analysis of this price increase over time. Are manufacturers colluding to gouge on prices? Has there been genuine pressure which has drastically increased the cost of production leading to a coemsurate increase in retail pricing?
From the outside, I think the price increases are starting to take the piss.
Last edited by zappafile123 on Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Stefano
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by Stefano

Can we pretty please get a chorus or above polished groupset?? Literally all I've wanted for 10+ years.

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DieselCondor
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by DieselCondor

New alloy wheels, including rim brake variants. Not asking for too much- I'd take a lightened Scirroco rim brake tubeless ready.

Etienne
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:41 am
Location: France

by Etienne

zappafile123 wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:41 pm
For perspective, I bought my first Dura Ace 7800 groupset in 2008 for $1300 aud. The price of a DA groupset has gone up 4.6 times in 14 years. I would love to see an economic analysis of this price increase over time. Are manufacturers colluding to gouge on prices? Has there been genuine pressure which has drastically increased the cost of production leading to a coemsurate increase in retail pricing?
From the outside, I think the price increases are starting to take the piss.
Production costs and inflation (+30% US 2008 > 2022) may explain part of the price increase ... but new markets and new customers, ready to throw so much cash are probably the main reason.

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micky
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by micky

Dov wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:11 pm
There's no reason for Campagnolo to abandon mechanical and rim brakes. It's not loads of extra SKUs. As a minimum there's demand for another generation of these. And in 4 years we can see where the market is.

I'd like to see them really grow the offer in the mid ranges with EPS rolled down to Chorus and Athena in both rim and disc. Mechanical options too.

Abandon all the bottom groupset options and the cheaper wheels. Really stretch up. Some sort of super Super Record tier.
Bring back the Super Record Titanium.

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micky
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by micky

Stefano wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:56 am
Can we pretty please get a chorus or above polished groupset?? Literally all I've wanted for 10+ years.
As much as I've no interest in it, but when they offered Potenza/Athena in silver finish there was a market for it.
It would make sense to offer something along those lines.

ico
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by ico

Keep rim brakes and mechanical shifting.


usr
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by usr

Dov wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:11 pm
Abandon all the bottom groupset options and the cheaper wheels. Really stretch up. Some sort of super Super Record tier.
Usually the bottom is hardly more than a spare parts bin for former high end groups. They need to keep some form of that (and should *absolutely* switch the levers to Ultra-Shift so that it's not that much of a downgrade if you do need an emergency replacement).

That aside, what I would want to see (not so much for buying but for keeping their lights on) is full embrace for wireless disc at least down to Chorus (perhaps even move down Chorus a little while doing that) on one side, balanced by a consolidation of mechanical/rim into maybe a single Record level (with an SR crank option perhaps? Just don't waste shelf space for keeping two levels of mechanical-only in parts like derailleurs) and one deliberately retro-focused variant like a polished silver Athena, designated from the beginning as an "LTS" version that would get spares reissued whenever stocks run out. That would be an entirely new approach, but the phasing out of mechanical certainly does call for entirely new approaches.

In the field of the no-quitey-so-retrogrouchy, what I'd really want to see are wireless/hyraulic Ergopower that put that huge hydraulics reservoir/cylinder thing down into the space that was previously housing the ultrashift ratchet (that's gone with electronic), returning the hoods shape to 11s/12s rim. The hydraulic/mechanic combination should be the first to go (even if it has quite a moment now with Ekar), it's one of those unlucky intermediate things like QR disk frames.

Butcher
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by Butcher

Lighter SR cassette and a couple more choices for people that don't need a 29. Pretty simple I would think.

raggedtrousers
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by raggedtrousers

1. The OP's comments about current mechanical 12sp being fussy/a pain to setup are accurate. No, it's not impossible by any means, but it's harder than it should be.
2. They need to bring in at least 1, ideally 2 new electronic variants (Record and Chorus being the obvious ones). Like it or not, it's the way the market is going. I think semi-wireless is the way to go.
3. Promote Chorus 12sp mechanical as the new mechanical Ultegra. I remain convinced there is a market for an upper-mid range, 'it just works, doesn't weigh or cost a ton', mechanical groupset.
4. Bring out an electronic version of Ekar. Again, it's what the market wants.
5. Introduce a 12sp quick link for road. Maybe niche, but not having one is a PITA.

c60rider
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by c60rider

Only Campagnolo know how many mechanical rim groups they sell compared with electric/disc etc. Hopefully it's enough to make them viable profit wise. All we know is that the numbers are far lower than Shimano but the majority who buy shimano Ultegra/Dura ace are probably going electric/disc so it doesn't make economic sense for them to keep investing so much in mechanical as the returns for them are probably not worth it. Which is why they've probably dropped mechanical from those groups. I'd like to think there are enough like me that want to keep their bike as mechanical as possible with Campagnolo and rim brakes. I don't want to see them abandon that on their top tier groups in the way Shimano has. I want future SR groups to continue with all gear and brake options mechanical/electric, rim/disc. I'm already starting to feel somewhat alienated by the bike industry (bigger frame manufacturers) pushing disc brakes onto everyone without the component manufacturers doing the same. Options is what we need. Saying that I'm sure I'll be able to buy rim brakes for the rest of my lifetime. You can still get toe clips and straps if you really want them :lol:

Bobbyc123
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by Bobbyc123

Not sure how simple it is, but i'd like to see them get the ergo hoods on disk the same shape as on the rim model (shimano managed to do it, even though they went the other way way and made the 12s versions bulky again.

This is pretty much the main thing that would keep me going to disk with campagnolo.

Be good to see a big shifting improvement with a new version, ie. faster and smoother on the FD (I've found 11eps/12eps are pretty much indistinguishable, and the same FD shapes make me think they're probably V similar in reality)

patchsurfer
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by patchsurfer

Quite interesting reading in one of the articles about Bowman's liquidation - can't remember which - centreing on supply chain difficulties. Specifically called out Shimano's supply chain difficulties around some of the electric / electronic components in di2. Could well be a valid market niche in the next couple of years for high end mechanical groupsets that are actually...available.

If - as I think it is - the cassette spacing for campag 12 speed and shimano 12 speed is as near as makes no difference identical, I'll be swapping my Shimano for Campag mechanical this year...

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robertbb
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by robertbb

c60rider wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:33 am
Only Campagnolo know how many mechanical rim groups they sell compared with electric/disc etc. Hopefully it's enough to make them viable profit wise. All we know is that the numbers are far lower than Shimano but the majority who buy shimano Ultegra/Dura ace are probably going electric/disc so it doesn't make economic sense for them to keep investing so much in mechanical as the returns for them are probably not worth it. Which is why they've probably dropped mechanical from those groups. I'd like to think there are enough like me that want to keep their bike as mechanical as possible with Campagnolo and rim brakes. I don't want to see them abandon that on their top tier groups in the way Shimano has. I want future SR groups to continue with all gear and brake options mechanical/electric, rim/disc. I'm already starting to feel somewhat alienated by the bike industry (bigger frame manufacturers) pushing disc brakes onto everyone without the component manufacturers doing the same. Options is what we need. Saying that I'm sure I'll be able to buy rim brakes for the rest of my lifetime. You can still get toe clips and straps if you really want them :lol:
I agree with everything you've said, but will say as a long time (and current) mechanical Campy user that the writing is on the wall for rim braked mechanical groups.

I have heard Campy insiders say that, for example, Mr C himself actually contemplated taking action against/barring companies that were stripping, silver polishing and pantographing Campy groups. They only relaxed on that when Campy North America showed them how all the chatter on the forums etc. was positive - not negative. Still, they don't want to be seen as a relic of the 60's/70's/80's - they want to be seen (and in many ways legitimately are) at the cutting edge of performance.

The release of Ekar in itself says much about where they are. Remember this is a company that had a very ill-fated entry into the MTB space which (along with other business decisions outside of cycling) really hurt them so they wouldn't have taken the step lightly.

Enjoy your mechanical rim brakes and hoard if you must (I have) because while they may survive another release cycle the days are numbered. Campy is small by comparison to SRAM and Shimano, but they are not a "small" company otherwise. They employ a lot of people, they have very advanced production facilities and methods and their R&D people are among the very best.

Mr C is smart. He knows that when enthusiasts like us - who represent a tiny fraction of the cycling world - are either dead or too old to ride, the company won't survive if it doesn't innovate and stay appealing to a new generation of riders and compatible with mass market bike frames.

He can't rely on selling mechanical rim brake groupsets to old guys with beards and birkenstocks on custom metal frames. They need to make groupsets to sell to young guys with mass market carbon frames... but who interestingly also have beards and birkenstocks :lol:

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