Shimano 12s Chain with SRAM AXS Cassette

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da123
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by da123

IrrelevantD wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:58 am
da123 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:01 pm
IrrelevantD wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:43 pm
The Shimano 12s chain has a different plate profile for improved shifting with their new-ish Hyperglyde+ cassettes and rings (same for MTB and the new Road groups). The chain is not compatible with older 11s or other 12s systems. You can use other 12s chains (IE: SRAM Eagle) with the Shimano cassettes, but you will lose the benefit of the new shifting technology.

Additionally, the SRAM 12s Road chains (flat top) have larger rollers, requiring cassettes and rings specifically designed to work with SRAM 12s Road. You cannot use SRAM Eagle (MTB) or any other 12s components.
Thanks for this. However I have a SRAM XG1290 cassette, so is there an issue (by 'issue', I mean actual problem rather than 'doesn't shift quite as smoothly as hyperglide') with using the Shimano 12s chain with that? Or should I stick to using the KMC X12 chain, which I know is compatible with SRAM AXS cassettes as KMC have confirmed this?

Cheers, Dave
If you're using a 12s Red cassette, you need to be using a SRAM chain. The cassette is designed to use a chain with larger rollers, by using a *normal* chain, you're basically doing the same thing as you would with running a new chain on a worn cassette. May be performance issues as well as may cause premature wear. Regarding the Shimano 12s chain, it has a different inner plate for Hyperglide+. This needs a specific tooth profile to work properly. Having run a HG+ chain on normal chainring, it can be noisy, and it can wear out the teeth on the gears faster. If you really want to avoid the SRAM chains, I'd stick with the KMC*. I believe those are the same as the 12s Eagle MTB chains.

*not sure on the new KMC, if it's labeled as SRAM Road/Flattop compatible, its probably fine, otherwise, it's probably designed to replace Eagle.
I checked directly with KMC (about 6 months ago). They told me that the post January 2021 chains, which have a '12' printed on the links, are compatible with Road AXS and can be used instead of flattop. 2020 or earlier 12s chains are not compatible. I've heard (anecdotally) that some pro teams use KMC chains with SRAM Road AXS drivetrains to eliminate issues with the chain over shifting on front up shifts and dropping. Don't know if that is BS or not 🤷‍♂️

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

da123 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:42 pm

I checked directly with KMC (about 6 months ago). They told me that the post January 2021 chains, which have a '12' printed on the links, are compatible with Road AXS and can be used instead of flattop. 2020 or earlier 12s chains are not compatible. I've heard (anecdotally) that some pro teams use KMC chains with SRAM Road AXS drivetrains to eliminate issues with the chain over shifting on front up shifts and dropping. Don't know if that is BS or not 🤷‍♂️
Glad to hear it. I'm fan of KMC chains in general, that's what I'm using on my road/gravel bike. Only chain I've ever broken while riding was SRAM, but that was 11s.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

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bobones
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by bobones

FWIW, the only chain I've ever broken was a KMC. It broke more than once so I suspect it was not hardened properly, but that was years ago on a 10 speed chain. I have had no problems since with Shimano, KMC or SRAM chains.

I used to get front over shifts on 11 speed eTap with the Red 22 chain and Red Exogram chainset rings. I also suffered from the chain slipping off the big ring on to the small when cross chained (big-big). Both were fixed by moving to KMC X-11EL and Praxis Buzz rings. I think the chain alone was good enough for the overshift but the slipping off needed the new rings.

I have 3 AXS bikes and I don't have any problems with front shifting using the flattop chain so IME eTap AXS does not suffer the same front shifting woes as 11 speed eTap.

I might try a 12 speed KMC chain just to get it in gold, and I will be trying a Chinese 12 speed HG cassette on AXS if it ever arrives. I would have bought an Ultegra R8100 11-34 if I could find stock.

da123
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by da123

bobones wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:38 pm
FWIW, the only chain I've ever broken was a KMC. It broke more than once so I suspect it was not hardened properly, but that was years ago on a 10 speed chain. I have had no problems since with Shimano, KMC or SRAM chains.

I used to get front over shifts on 11 speed eTap with the Red 22 chain and Red Exogram chainset rings. I also suffered from the chain slipping off the big ring on to the small when cross chained (big-big). Both were fixed by moving to KMC X-11EL and Praxis Buzz rings. I think the chain alone was good enough for the overshift but the slipping off needed the new rings.

I have 3 AXS bikes and I don't have any problems with front shifting using the flattop chain so IME eTap AXS does not suffer the same front shifting woes as 11 speed eTap.

I might try a 12 speed KMC chain just to get it in gold, and I will be trying a Chinese 12 speed HG cassette on AXS if it ever arrives. I would have bought an Ultegra R8100 11-34 if I could find stock.
I suspect my overshift issues were mainly due to running the V1 Carbon-Ti X-AXS chainrings. No matter what I tried I could not get these to work with a flattop chain, however they worked better (sort of, in that the 'chain over the top' problem could be prevented) when using the KMC X12. When I eventually got fed up of sub-par front shifting and switched my cranks to a SRAM Red, the issues disappeared and SRAM rings work perfectly with a flattop (as you'd expect of course). I do now have the updated V2 carbon-ti chainrings (as Carbon-Ti replaced my V1 rings FOC due to the known issues), but couldn't say whether they work better or not as I have no other AXS bike to try them on (I sold my others to fund my Tarmac build).

jspafard3
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by jspafard3

bobones wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:38 pm
I might try a 12 speed KMC chain just to get it in gold, and I will be trying a Chinese 12 speed HG cassette on AXS if it ever arrives. I would have bought an Ultegra R8100 11-34 if I could find stock.
Did you get this combination to work? I have the exact same setup (Force AXS RD, KMC chain, chinese HG 12 speed 11-34 cassette) and I am not particularly thrilled by the shifting performance. I'm wondering if simply putting an R8100 cassette will smooth things up.

bobones
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by bobones

jspafard3 wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:15 pm
bobones wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:38 pm
I might try a 12 speed KMC chain just to get it in gold, and I will be trying a Chinese 12 speed HG cassette on AXS if it ever arrives. I would have bought an Ultegra R8100 11-34 if I could find stock.
Did you get this combination to work? I have the exact same setup (Force AXS RD, KMC chain, chinese HG 12 speed 11-34 cassette) and I am not particularly thrilled by the shifting performance. I'm wondering if simply putting an R8100 cassette will smooth things up.
Yes, I am using the Sunshine HG 11-34 on my winter bike and the shifting is totally fine. I am still using the AXS flat top chain, however, and I needed to straighten my hanger to get the shifting correct at the top and bottom of the cassette even though shifting was perfect before with the AXS cassette. The whole RD needed shifted about 8 micro clicks inboard too with the HG cassette.

AZR3
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by AZR3

Has anyone tired full AXS (derailleurs/cassette/flattop chain) with 11 speed 2x chainrings? Trying to macgyver together a 2x setup for my Exploro and I've used the flattop chain with 11 speed 1x chainrings without issue for about 10k miles but never tried that setup with front shifting. Would a KMC X12 chain be an option?

bobones
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by bobones

AZR3 wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:06 pm
Has anyone tired full AXS (derailleurs/cassette/flattop chain) with 11 speed 2x chainrings? Trying to macgyver together a 2x setup for my Exploro and I've used the flattop chain with 11 speed 1x chainrings without issue for about 10k miles but never tried that setup with front shifting. Would a KMC X12 chain be an option?
While my original crank was away for warranty inspection, I ran Force AXS with an 11-speed Red crank fitted with Praxis Buzz 52-36 11-speed rings and front shifting was perfect. I haven't tried a 12-speed KMC chain, but they are supposed to be compatible. Praxis' latest Buzz rings are also certified AXS compatible now.

AZR3
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by AZR3

bobones wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:28 pm
AZR3 wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:06 pm
Has anyone tired full AXS (derailleurs/cassette/flattop chain) with 11 speed 2x chainrings? Trying to macgyver together a 2x setup for my Exploro and I've used the flattop chain with 11 speed 1x chainrings without issue for about 10k miles but never tried that setup with front shifting. Would a KMC X12 chain be an option?
While my original crank was away for warranty inspection, I ran Force AXS with an 11-speed Red crank fitted with Praxis Buzz 52-36 11-speed rings and front shifting was perfect. I haven't tried a 12-speed KMC chain, but they are supposed to be compatible. Praxis' latest Buzz rings are also certified AXS compatible now.
Thanks, I'll give it a go with the flattop chain and might order the KMC X12 just to have on hand in case there is any issues

kroem
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by kroem

AZR3 wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:42 pm
Thanks, I'll give it a go with the flattop chain and might order the KMC X12 just to have on hand in case there is any issues
Update? :)
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AZR3
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by AZR3

kroem wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 2:46 pm
AZR3 wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:42 pm
Thanks, I'll give it a go with the flattop chain and might order the KMC X12 just to have on hand in case there is any issues
Update? :)
I've been using SRAM CX 11spd 30/46 on my Exploro for several thousand miles without issue. Recently switched to an Easton EC90 SL crank and have been using their 30/46 chainrings (labeled as 11spd as well) and they shift the same as the SRAM CX setup. Very pleased, everything works great.

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by wheelsONfire

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bobones
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by bobones

Jason has openly admitted he's never done any testing to back up his views on running AXS with off-brand components, so everything in that article is just theoretical FUD. YBN and KMC have said their chains are compatible, and I am sure they've done a enough testing to at least ensure they're not going to get their asses sued.

I have tried quite a few combinations of chains, cranks and cassettes with AXS derailleurs and never once had a chain slip under load like you get with worn components. That said, the best results I've had are with brand matched components, i.e. Shimano chains with Shimano cassettes and AXS chains with AXS cassettes, although the X12 chain works adequately with both, and the flattop chain works well on my 105 cassette. (As for the thread title: I have never tried a Shimano chain on an AXS cassette).

Anyway, surely there can be no additional risk if the only AXS components in a hybrid setup are the derailleurs themselves?

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

bobones wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 1:07 pm
Jason has openly admitted he's never done any testing to back up his views on running AXS with off-brand components, so everything in that article is just theoretical FUD. YBN and KMC have said their chains are compatible, and I am sure they've done a enough testing to at least ensure they're not going to get their asses sued.

I have tried quite a few combinations of chains, cranks and cassettes with AXS derailleurs and never once had a chain slip under load like you get with worn components. That said, the best results I've had are with brand matched components, i.e. Shimano chains with Shimano cassettes and AXS chains with AXS cassettes, although the X12 chain works adequately with both, and the flattop chain works well on my 105 cassette. (As for the thread title: I have never tried a Shimano chain on an AXS cassette).

Anyway, surely there can be no additional risk if the only AXS components in a hybrid setup are the derailleurs themselves?
I'm not the one to say anything here i guess. For me it's enough reading that the size of links and rollers are not sized to the specific requirements.
Ofcourse it works, but that's not what i would settle for if i bought RED. I think if you buy the best they can do, you take advantage of that and measurements not same i would not expects to perform at the very top. I fully grasp that people will argue against that. Because that's what we always do.
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satanas
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by satanas

The Zero Friction guy seems to me to be mostly concerned with covering his arse, i.e., warding off potential lawsuits, so I'm inclined to agree with bobones that he's basically spreading FUD.

*All* the manufacturers are going to say you should only use their stuff for commercial reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean nothing else is going to work, that theoretical derailleur capacities cannot be exceeded, etc. Ultimately everyone wants to sell more of their own stuff and not be sued, so saying "use only what we recommend or the world will end" makes both financial and legal sense.

Since people can vary pretty drastically with respect to what they consider acceptable performance, this makes it difficult to have faith that what's posted on forums might be correct; somebody else might set a much higher or (more often) lower bar.

As for AXS roller sizes being enough different to matter, there are many, many people here arguing in both directions. It looks to me though that the naysayers are mostly regurgitating SRAM propaganda, whilst those saying things work okay are more often speaking from experience. Flipping a coin or testing oneself seem like valid responses to me...

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