Italian Bikes

[rollinslow]

Out of curiosity, do people genuinely think carbon frames made 100% in Italy would be better quality than frames made in China or Taiwan?

I say that myself owning full "italian" spec bikes, pinarello, etc.

Appreciate it's a departure from the OP but interested to hear what people think. My assumption is manufacture is sent offshore not only because of the cheaper labour but also because of the high quality manufacture and infrustructure.

For me, it has just as much to do with quality as it does with the Italians are culturally at the heart of road cycling. Italy embodies what I enjoy about road cycling, the people who make bikes or work in the bike industry are riders, and the Giro. I want to support the place the is the culture of cycling itself.

Labor conditions, pollution, communism etc is also an important consideration for myself.

[openwheelracing]

It's not as simple as cheap labor. Work ethics, productivity, quality, efficiency, politics all play a role in where to make best quality bikes at lowest cost.

I can think of 50 countries with dirt cheap labor. None of them make any bike parts.

[Llanberis]

Work ethics, productivity, quality, efficiency, politics all play a role in where to make best quality bikes at lowest cost.

I guess what I meant to say was operation cost, which is a result of direct contribution from the reasons mentioend above. And that's how so many stuff are made in China.

On another note, I found it funny when poeple say it doesn't matter where it's made / you wouldn't pick on manufacturing origin if you understand supply chains, etc. The thing is, if today one is supplied with two identical bikes (of same quality, price, material, you name it), one is labelled made in China and the other Germany or Italy, ask yourself which one you would pick? I would say the answer is pretty obiovus, and for me, it is the reaons rollingslow mentioend:

Labor conditions, pollution, communism etc is also an important consideration for myself.

[wheelsONfire]

Work ethics, productivity, quality, efficiency, politics all play a role in where to make best quality bikes at lowest cost.

I guess what I meant to say was operation cost, which is a result of direct contribution from the reasons mentioend above. And that's how so many stuff are made in China.

On another note, I found it funny when poeple say it doesn't matter where it's made / you wouldn't pick on manufacturing origin if you understand supply chains, etc. The thing is, if today one is supplied with two identical bikes (of same quality, price, material, you name it), one is labelled made in China and the other Germany or Italy, ask yourself which one you would pick? I would say the answer is pretty obiovus, and for me, it is the reaons rollingslow mentioend:

Labor conditions, pollution, communism etc is also an important consideration for myself.

Hehe, well that is easy!

Talking Pinarello, doesn't people get upset (if rumours are true?) that our versions are made in Asia, while Ineos are made by (supposedly) Sarto!?
Paying that rare and hot premium price, i would for sure prefer if my frameset came from Sarto over Asia.

[Bobbyc123]

Out of curiosity, do people genuinely think carbon frames made 100% in Italy would be better quality than frames made in China or Taiwan?

I say that myself owning full "italian" spec bikes, pinarello, etc.

Appreciate it's a departure from the OP but interested to hear what people think. My assumption is manufacture is sent offshore not only because of the cheaper labour but also because of the high quality manufacture and infrustructure.

For me, it has just as much to do with quality as it does with the Italians are culturally at the heart of road cycling. Italy embodies what I enjoy about road cycling, the people who make bikes or work in the bike industry are riders, and the Giro. I want to support the place the is the culture of cycling itself.

Labor conditions, pollution, communism etc is also an important consideration for myself.

It seems like people are over-romanticising european manufacture, thinking their C64 is getting made by a guy call Giuseppe, wearing an apron, sipping an espresso and smoking a cigarette. When assembly, from my understanding, fairly low-skill work, images from factories you do see a more akin to a fruit-picking workforce.

Work ethics, productivity, quality, efficiency, politics all play a role in where to make best quality bikes at lowest cost.

I guess what I meant to say was operation cost, which is a result of direct contribution from the reasons mentioend above. And that's how so many stuff are made in China.

On another note, I found it funny when poeple say it doesn't matter where it's made / you wouldn't pick on manufacturing origin if you understand supply chains, etc. The thing is, if today one is supplied with two identical bikes (of same quality, price, material, you name it), one is labelled made in China and the other Germany or Italy, ask yourself which one you would pick? I would say the answer is pretty obiovus, and for me, it is the reaons rollingslow mentioend:

Labor conditions, pollution, communism etc is also an important consideration for myself.

Hehe, well that is easy!

Talking Pinarello, doesn't people get upset (if rumours are true?) that our versions are made in Asia, while Ineos are made by (supposedly) Sarto!?
Paying that rare and hot premium price, i would for sure prefer if my frameset came from Sarto over Asia.

Is there more info on the pinarello / sarto thing? I hadn't heard that before.
But TBH, i think i'd genuinely prefer to have my bike made in Taiwan over Sarto in Italy. Just like my iPhone

[Llanberis]

Labor conditions, pollution, communism etc is also an important consideration for myself.

It seems like people are over-romanticising european manufacture, thinking their C64 is getting made by a guy call Giuseppe, wearing an apron, sipping an espresso and smoking a cigarette. When assembly, from my understanding, fairly low-skill work, images from factories you do see a more akin to a fruit-picking workforce.

I don't thnk that's what rollingslow had in mind when he wrote those down, at least not for me. There are quite a few pre-preg frame manuacturing videos you can find online, and I wouldn't necessarily call it a low-skill job. Sure, one can just follow the lay-up schedule and map the clothes out in the mould, but the quality level you work towards to can vary by various factors (time spent, trimming, etc.).



Another example would be regional policies. We all know how much plastic waste was created to make a frame, and the waste disposal resitriciton can be very different in different countries. I think that's one of the scenarios where consideartions such as above come in.

But TBH, i think i'd genuinely prefer to have my bike made in Taiwan over Sarto in Italy. Just like my iPhone

To each their own I suppose!

[justkeepedaling]

I 100% would prefer my carbon made in Taiwan than Italy.

[wheelsONfire]

Out of curiosity, do people genuinely think carbon frames made 100% in Italy would be better quality than frames made in China or Taiwan?

I say that myself owning full "italian" spec bikes, pinarello, etc.

Appreciate it's a departure from the OP but interested to hear what people think. My assumption is manufacture is sent offshore not only because of the cheaper labour but also because of the high quality manufacture and infrustructure.

For me, it has just as much to do with quality as it does with the Italians are culturally at the heart of road cycling. Italy embodies what I enjoy about road cycling, the people who make bikes or work in the bike industry are riders, and the Giro. I want to support the place the is the culture of cycling itself.

Labor conditions, pollution, communism etc is also an important consideration for myself.

It seems like people are over-romanticising european manufacture, thinking their C64 is getting made by a guy call Giuseppe, wearing an apron, sipping an espresso and smoking a cigarette. When assembly, from my understanding, fairly low-skill work, images from factories you do see a more akin to a fruit-picking workforce.

Work ethics, productivity, quality, efficiency, politics all play a role in where to make best quality bikes at lowest cost.

I guess what I meant to say was operation cost, which is a result of direct contribution from the reasons mentioend above. And that's how so many stuff are made in China.

On another note, I found it funny when poeple say it doesn't matter where it's made / you wouldn't pick on manufacturing origin if you understand supply chains, etc. The thing is, if today one is supplied with two identical bikes (of same quality, price, material, you name it), one is labelled made in China and the other Germany or Italy, ask yourself which one you would pick? I would say the answer is pretty obiovus, and for me, it is the reaons rollingslow mentioend:

Labor conditions, pollution, communism etc is also an important consideration for myself.

Hehe, well that is easy!

Talking Pinarello, doesn't people get upset (if rumours are true?) that our versions are made in Asia, while Ineos are made by (supposedly) Sarto!?
Paying that rare and hot premium price, i would for sure prefer if my frameset came from Sarto over Asia.

Is there more info on the pinarello / sarto thing? I hadn't heard that before.
But TBH, i think i'd genuinely prefer to have my bike made in Taiwan over Sarto in Italy. Just like my iPhone

I certainly don't believe all Italian and European factories are top of the line.
But there are those that are and those are the one's i would prefer.
Sadly i don't believe Colnago is the higher end build quality from the pics i've seen, alot of negligence has slide through.

[hannawald]

Out of curiosity, do people genuinely think carbon frames made 100% in Italy would be better quality than frames made in China or Taiwan?

I say that myself owning full "italian" spec bikes, pinarello, etc.

Appreciate it's a departure from the OP but interested to hear what people think. My assumption is manufacture is sent offshore not only because of the cheaper labour but also because of the high quality manufacture and infrustructure.

For me, it has just as much to do with quality as it does with the Italians are culturally at the heart of road cycling. Italy embodies what I enjoy about road cycling, the people who make bikes or work in the bike industry are riders, and the Giro. I want to support the place the is the culture of cycling itself.

Labor conditions, pollution, communism etc is also an important consideration for myself.

It seems like people are over-romanticising european manufacture, thinking their C64 is getting made by a guy call Giuseppe, wearing an apron, sipping an espresso and smoking a cigarette. When assembly, from my understanding, fairly low-skill work, images from factories you do see a more akin to a fruit-picking workforce.

I guess what I meant to say was operation cost, which is a result of direct contribution from the reasons mentioend above. And that's how so many stuff are made in China.

On another note, I found it funny when poeple say it doesn't matter where it's made / you wouldn't pick on manufacturing origin if you understand supply chains, etc. The thing is, if today one is supplied with two identical bikes (of same quality, price, material, you name it), one is labelled made in China and the other Germany or Italy, ask yourself which one you would pick? I would say the answer is pretty obiovus, and for me, it is the reaons rollingslow mentioend:

Hehe, well that is easy!

Talking Pinarello, doesn't people get upset (if rumours are true?) that our versions are made in Asia, while Ineos are made by (supposedly) Sarto!?
Paying that rare and hot premium price, i would for sure prefer if my frameset came from Sarto over Asia.

Is there more info on the pinarello / sarto thing? I hadn't heard that before.
But TBH, i think i'd genuinely prefer to have my bike made in Taiwan over Sarto in Italy. Just like my iPhone

I certainly don't believe all Italian and European factories are top of the line.
But there are those that are and those are the one's i would prefer.
Sadly i don't believe Colnago is the higher end build quality from the pics i've seen, alot of negligence has slide through.

Similar everywhere, the US just same. Light Bicycle rims have better manufacturing quality than Enve or Hed.

[maxim809]

There is so much that goes into the final quality of any product.

People often focus on WHERE something is made, but I hope those people realize that this is only a small part of the whole equation.

The decisions that impact final quality can be made long before manufacturing. The engineering trade-off decisions. The business model that influence where to add & reduce costs throughout the whole process. The quality of how engineering hands off the design to manufacturing. The values of the company itself. The geopolitical factors that must be taken into consideration to run a viable business.

These are just tips of the iceberg. Ultimately, the people in charge of deciding each of these things all impact the finished goods long before anything is handed off to manufacturing.

If you don't know how each of these stages work, for every single company that you are comparing, then at best you are only making a blanket statement. And for those who make such blanket statements, I surmise the opinions have less to do with quality and more to do with something else.

It would be good to look at each company for their own merits. But if you really understood what I just said, you will realize this is easier said than done.

[rollinslow]

There is so much that goes into the final quality of any product.

People often focus on WHERE something is made, but I hope those people realize that this is only a small part of the whole equation.

The decisions that impact final quality can be made long before manufacturing. The engineering trade-off decisions. The business model that influence where to add & reduce costs throughout the whole process. The quality of how engineering hands off the design to manufacturing. The values of the company itself. The geopolitical factors that must be taken into consideration to run a viable business.

These are just tips of the iceberg. Ultimately, the people in charge of deciding each of these things all impact the finished goods long before anything is handed off to manufacturing.

If you don't know how each of these stages work, for every single company that you are comparing, then at best you are only making a blanket statement. And for those who make such blanket statements, I surmise the opinions have less to do with quality and more to do with something else.

It would be good to look at each company for their own merits. But if you really understood what I just said, you will realize this is easier said than done.

I have a Moots and know that Moots sources titanium from Oregon USA and it is not repurposed military surplus like many other high-end Ti builders are stuck using. They build by hand in Steamboat CO and I've been there to see it done myself. Then it comes to me and is now in my bike library. Carbon is a different beast but at least 50% of my post above was on the cultural connection Italy has to cycling that China does not have. My Rocket espresso machine was also made in Italy and Italy embodies espresso and espresso culture. The people who own Rocket are cycling enthusiasts as well. Does that make sense?

I definitely do not deny that Taiwan in particular is probably making the best carbon mass produced bike frames at the high end (S-works Tarmac for example). I think sometimes it's not just purely about quality but also about supporting what you think is worth supporting. For me, it's cycling and cycling culture in Italy and Campagnolo!

Carbron frame quality is tough though and I see your point. Mine is just more focused on culture and cycling.

[maxim809]

I mean it makes total sense. Btw I wasn't targeting any single person, but speaking generally in regards to how it grinds my gears when people (cyclists in particular) draw conclusions on quality based solely on origin. This is simply lazy thinking, riddled with assumptions.

Instead, I wish people could be more thorough with their thoughts such as you have just done. Or at least be more honest with their thinking. There are opinions, and then there are lazy opinions.

FWIW I have a rocket espresso.

[micky]

Like a WW tradition, at least once each year there's a topic with a title along the lines of "why I will never buy an italian bike again" which in this case is utterly far from what the OP was asking.
Ride whatever bike or unicycle you guys prefer and don't turn it into a political thing!

[Llanberis]

Like a WW tradition, at least once each year there's a topic with a title along the lines of "why I will never buy an italian bike again"

Anyone who has had the pleasure to work on a Ducati 748 / 996 or a Lamborghini Diablo would gladly agree with this.

Ride whatever bike or unicycle you guys prefer and don't turn it into a political thing!

[Siriuslux]

https://exept.cc

Custom geometry and supposedly the real "made in Italy".

Exept presented a new road bike on the 11th of September at a bike show in Rimini. I am not sure that reflects on their newly made website yet.
They are the only ones who are able to make a custom geometry frame in a monocoque structure, which is different to what Sarto, Festka and the likes do.
I should get some information on the product beginning of next month.