The Great Braking Debate Thread (Disc/Rim/Cantilever/Fixie/InsertNewTechHere)

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

Moderator: robbosmans

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 1395
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

cveks wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:12 am
Rim brake bikes are more aero and save 15% watts on speeds above 40 km/h.
Haha its like doing EPO.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2019 Colnago V2R Disc Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

tomato
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

cveks wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:20 pm
Haha I just bought ONE MORE rim brake frameset Scott CR1 Pro from 2016 for bargain deal just 380 euros complete frameset.

I will put on it Campagnolo Potenza groupset, Kinlin XR200 wheels and FSA K-Force Light crankset and with that setup weight will be less than 6.8kgs.

Whole bike will cost me less than 1400 euros to assemble.

Friend of mine, in same time in same shop bought Scott Addict 20 on the other hand for 2100 euros and it comes with Shimano 105 groupset and weights 8.4 kgs.

So I will have much lighter bike for less .

New Scott bike in that weight range is Scott Addict Rc Pro and it costs around 8500 euros.

Insane price difference if you ask me.
So, the moral of the story is that you can get more bang for your buck by buying a used bike instead of a new one? Shocking.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



tomato
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

cveks wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:12 am
Rim brake bikes are more aero and save 15% watts on speeds above 40 km/h.
You previously claimed 15% more speed for the same number of watts. Now, it's 15% fewer watts at the same speed? That's not nearly as good.

RyanH
Moderator
Posts: 3191
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:01 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

by RyanH


OnTheRivet wrote:
5.0wkg is solid Cat 1 on the road. We're talking road race Cat 1 not sprinter. You are way off base. All your estimations are just bonkers and typical of people having no idea what actual power numbers are. Your random clubmate did numbers that would get him an instant ride on a Domestic pro team. sorry, nope.
As much as it pains me to say it, Tobin is pretty savvy when it comes to power data. He records Zwift from two devices and he's a pretty lean dude. My best season was when I stopped training and just smashed every ride and did 10k miles that year. I was probably around 4.8/4.9wpk FTP. I'd like to believe that's exceptional but it's not. It's just merely good. If I actually followed a training plan, stopped eating so much damn food and with a bit of luck, I think I could hit 5.25 to 5.5.

If you want to doubt my numbers, you're more than welcomed to but I calibrate my PMs (mostly SRM) with a certified weight which match my recently serviced SRMs.

OnTheRivet
Posts: 732
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

RyanH wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:33 am
OnTheRivet wrote:
5.0wkg is solid Cat 1 on the road. We're talking road race Cat 1 not sprinter. You are way off base. All your estimations are just bonkers and typical of people having no idea what actual power numbers are. Your random clubmate did numbers that would get him an instant ride on a Domestic pro team. sorry, nope.
As much as it pains me to say it, Tobin is pretty savvy when it comes to power data. He records Zwift from two devices and he's a pretty lean dude. My best season was when I stopped training and just smashed every ride and did 10k miles that year. I was probably around 4.8/4.9wpk FTP. I'd like to believe that's exceptional but it's not. It's just merely good. If I actually followed a training plan, stopped eating so much damn food and with a bit of luck, I think I could hit 5.25 to 5.5.

If you want to doubt my numbers, you're more than welcomed to but I calibrate my PMs (mostly SRM) with a certified weight which match my recently serviced SRMs.
"I was probably around 4.8/4.9wpk FTP"

And this is the issue. Guessing is not the same as doing an FTP test. If you were making those numbers you could literally head out to ANY road race in the US and be a player in the Pro 1-2 field.
I have friends who coach and I know what it takes to win a Masters National road race title (they have coached them) and apparently there are potential National champions all over this forum, it's amazing.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12458
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

OnTheRivet wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:54 am


"I was probably around 4.8/4.9wpk FTP"

And this is the issue. Guessing is not the same as doing an FTP test. If you were making those numbers you could literally head out to ANY road race in the US and be a player in the Pro 1-2 field.
I have friends who coach and I know what it takes to win a Masters National road race title (they have coached them) and apparently there are potential National champions all over this forum, it's amazing.

RyanH was legitimately around 4.9w/kg in 2018-2019, IIRC. As was I at the end of 2020, but I had to get down to 60kg to do it.

You must be a heavier dude, because yes someone who is 80kg and 5.0w/kg is pretty beastly. He’d still likely lose Berkeley Hills, Pescadero, Mt. Hamilton, etc. Someone 70-75kg with 5.0w/kg would be at the pointy end of any flat or rolling RR. Someone 60kg and 5w/kg would pack finish a flat RR and be hanging on for dear life in a rolling RR…and dropped on any RR with real climbs.

And by coincidence, someone who is ~81kg with a 400W FT rode 60mi to Alviso today, won it, and rode 60mi home. He is a cat 3 on the road (because he just started racing road this year.)

Also FTP doesn’t mean what you probably think it means. In technical terms it’s riding at MLSS to TTE. TTE could be 70min…it could be 35min.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:06 am


Also FTP doesn’t mean what you probably think it means. In technical terms it’s riding at MLSS to TTE. TTE could be 70min…it could be 35min.
Finally something you and I can agree on. :beerchug:

basilic
Posts: 1028
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:05 am
Location: Geneva, Switzerland

by basilic

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:06 am
riding at MLSS to TTE.
would you translate that pls? and whatever it is, how is it measured?

User avatar
robbosmans
Moderator
Posts: 2780
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:40 pm
Location: Central Belgium
Contact:

by robbosmans

There is a great thread where everyone can share their power numbers

Powerprofiles
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app

jasjas
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am

by jasjas

Who cares what wpk someone has or hasn't, its a total irrelevance to this thread, go post in Training?

User avatar
robbosmans
Moderator
Posts: 2780
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:40 pm
Location: Central Belgium
Contact:

by robbosmans

Which probably means there isn’t anything relevant to talk about

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12458
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

jasjas wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:09 am
Who cares what wpk someone has or hasn't, its a total irrelevance to this thread, go post in Training?

It pertains to this thread as a few rim-brake aficionados periodically claim that disc-brake owners are "cafe warriors" or don't "push their hardware."

jasjas
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am

by jasjas

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:22 am
jasjas wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:09 am
Who cares what wpk someone has or hasn't, its a total irrelevance to this thread, go post in Training?
It pertains to this thread as a few rim-brake aficionados periodically claim that disc-brake owners are "cafe warriors" or don't "push their hardware."
Have they? the wealthy will always buy "toys" inc hi end bicycles... but there are plenty others who buy the best they can afford and are very serious cyclists, its just a lot easier to buy hi end bikes with disc in the current market, so those with money will be buying them.

Fortunately, still a few rim framesets out there and ultegra level complete bikes in rim.

mgrl
Posts: 340
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:49 am

by mgrl

Yes, they have
waltthizzney wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:49 pm

Its not about how much you ride, its how you ride. I doubt many of you are riding your bikes very hard in the first place. I don't know anyone who rides Cat 1/2 who has anything good to say about disc brakes, its always cafe warriors

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



blutto
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

OnTheRivet wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:54 am
RyanH wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:33 am
OnTheRivet wrote:
5.0wkg is solid Cat 1 on the road. We're talking road race Cat 1 not sprinter. You are way off base. All your estimations are just bonkers and typical of people having no idea what actual power numbers are. Your random clubmate did numbers that would get him an instant ride on a Domestic pro team. sorry, nope.
As much as it pains me to say it, Tobin is pretty savvy when it comes to power data. He records Zwift from two devices and he's a pretty lean dude. My best season was when I stopped training and just smashed every ride and did 10k miles that year. I was probably around 4.8/4.9wpk FTP. I'd like to believe that's exceptional but it's not. It's just merely good. If I actually followed a training plan, stopped eating so much damn food and with a bit of luck, I think I could hit 5.25 to 5.5.

If you want to doubt my numbers, you're more than welcomed to but I calibrate my PMs (mostly SRM) with a certified weight which match my recently serviced SRMs.
"I was probably around 4.8/4.9wpk FTP"

And this is the issue. Guessing is not the same as doing an FTP test. If you were making those numbers you could literally head out to ANY road race in the US and be a player in the Pro 1-2 field.
I have friends who coach and I know what it takes to win a Masters National road race title (they have coached them) and apparently there are potential National champions all over this forum, it's amazing.
Not a lab rat so not sure about the protocols that are being used to produce the performance numbers that have been bandied about here...but below is a series of lab generated numbers that looked kinda interesting and may ( or may not ) put things into perspective....
Age-related fitness declines in athletes can be due to both aging and detraining. Very little is known about the physiological and performance decline of professional cyclists after retirement from competition. To gain some insight into the aging and detraining process of elite cyclists, 5-time Tour de France winner and Olympic Champion Miguel Indurain performed a progressive cycle-ergometer test to exhaustion 14 y after retirement from professional cycling (age 46 y, body mass 92.2 kg). His maximal values were oxygen uptake 5.29 L/min (57.4 mL · kg−1 · min−1), aerobic power output 450 W (4.88 W/kg), heart rate 191 beats/min, blood lactate 11.2 mM. Values at the individual lactate threshold (ILT): 4.28 L/min (46.4 mL · kg−1 · min−1), 329 W (3.57 W/kg), 159 beats/min, 2.4 mM. Values at the 4-mM onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA): 4.68 L/min (50.8 mL · kg−1 · min−1), 369 W (4.00 W/kg), 170 beats/min. Average cycling gross efficiency between 100 and 350 W was 20.1%, with a peak value of 22.3% at 350 W. Delta efficiency was 27.04%. Absolute maximal oxygen uptake and aerobic power output declined by 12.4% and 15.2% per decade, whereas power output at ILT and OBLA declined by 19.8% and 19.2%. Larger declines in maximal and submaximal values relative to body mass (19.4–26.1%) indicate that body composition changed more than aerobic characteristics. Nevertheless, Indurain’s absolute maximal and submaximal oxygen uptake and power output still compare favorably with those exhibited by active professional cyclists.
Cheers

Post Reply