The Great Braking Debate Thread (Disc/Rim/Cantilever/Fixie/InsertNewTechHere)

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tjvirden
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

Definitely agree with the wet conditions caveat.

I think this is a much bigger deal than many give credit to; it does seem that a lot of people on WW don't ride much, or at all, in the wet - I'm certain that there's a big, and rapidly increasing, pool of riders who do ride in poor conditions and are spending more hours doing it as well. That on its own switches so many people to disc when they think about getting a new bike - properly done it's just a better system in the poor conditions, if you ride much. My rim brake setups do stop me well in most wet conditions, but the cost is rapid pad and rim wear. Pads okay, but expensive rims disappearing is big irritation.

Yes, there are improvements still needed to disc brake setups, on average [I hate the howling in the wet, and even Swissstop RS pads haven't stopped it completely for me].

For those that almost always ride in dry conditions, rim brakes can do a fantastic job. (as long as you can fit the rims and tires of your choice!)
Andrew69 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:04 pm
.......
[snip]
....
Horses for courses people. No one system is best for everything or everyone.
Yes; you'd think we could all agree on that; it'll never happen!

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

It’s also reality that road bikes are the only bikes where rim brakes even begin to make sense anymore. My CX/gravel bike is using my 202 NSWs that I originally used as climbing wheels on my Emonda. Cross-compatibility/interchangeability is great.

tonytourist
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Location: 90039

by tonytourist

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:37 pm
I don’t know how many miles I have on my 5.6s, but it has to be in excess of 20000mi by now.
Is this IRL or Zwift? :beerchug:

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

tonytourist wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:44 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:37 pm
I don’t know how many miles I have on my 5.6s, but it has to be in excess of 20000mi by now.
Is this IRL or Zwift? :beerchug:

YOU FOLLOW ME ON STRAVA BRO

tonytourist
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Location: 90039

by tonytourist

-2 kudos

tomato
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Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

openwheelracing wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:35 pm
tomato wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:17 pm

You haven't answered it at all. If this unmet demand for rim brake bikes exists, why are there no companies jumping in to take advantage of it?
page 3, 9th post.
Summary, higher revenue, higher margin.
You don't know the margins for either rim brake bikes or disc brake bikes. Either one could have a higher margin than the other and, if there is a difference, it's very small.

Regardless, if there really was a large unmet demand for rim brake bikes, a lone company that stepped up and made them would rake in the cash. That's business 101.

MikeD
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by MikeD

Deleted.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

MikeD wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:16 am
It's typical, the more expensive the product, the higher the profit margin. Large bicycle companies don't have a lot of imagination. Expect rim braked bikes to be offered by smaller, more innovative companies.

In a lot of industries, the second tier offering is the most profitable. This is true of business class airline seating vs first class. It’s also often the case in the restaurant business.

Profits/value also goes down the longer something stays in inventory, so there is a lot of risk in selling the high-end stuff. How often do you walk into a small boutique bike shop only to see ancient high-end shoes, components, etc. That stuff is unsellable until someone like House of Cogs swoops in and basically helps liquidate those dead assets.

The truth is bike shops don’t really make money on bike sales alone. The operating margin of a bike shop is like 33%, and the profit margins for bikes on the whole is 35%. This is why despite the static costs (rent, salaries, utilities, assembly, etc.) associated with $500 and $5000 being the same, shops are still happy to move a dozen low-end bikes a day plus attachments like helmets, shoes, apparel, lube, lights, bells, etc. All those items have margins of 50% or better.

tomato
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

MikeD wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:16 am
tomato wrote:
openwheelracing wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:35 pm
tomato wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:17 pm

You haven't answered it at all. If this unmet demand for rim brake bikes exists, why are there no companies jumping in to take advantage of it?
page 3, 9th post.
Summary, higher revenue, higher margin.
You don't know the margins for either rim brake bikes or disc brake bikes. Either one could have a higher margin than the other and, if there is a difference, it's very small.

Regardless, if there really was a large unmet demand for rim brake bikes, a lone company that stepped up and made them would rake in the cash. That's business 101.
It's typical, the more expensive the product, the higher the profit margin.
Not necessarily. But, even if it is, the difference is very small.

openwheelracing
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:41 am

by openwheelracing

G104xG320 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:43 pm

But Aethos is not rim brake, it is still a disc brake bike which is contradictory to lightweight.
So overall, I don't understand the meaning of Aethos.

I am in fact not interested in most of the road bikes nowadays simply they are disc brake.

The point is Aethos is the most expensive by far. Aethos has gone back to simpler tube shapes, external cabling, comfort and most importantly light weight. However the trade off is extreme high msrp. Specialized has successfully trained the consumer full circle. It is universally loved for all the reasons which a rim brake bike can provide at much lower price.
Last edited by openwheelracing on Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

openwheelracing
Posts: 372
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by openwheelracing

tomato wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:04 am
You don't know the margins for either rim brake bikes or disc brake bikes. Either one could have a higher margin than the other and, if there is a difference, it's very small.

Regardless, if there really was a large unmet demand for rim brake bikes, a lone company that stepped up and made them would rake in the cash. That's business 101.
I do know. That 15K bike has more margin than a $5K bike. Both the shop and manufacturer prefer to sell you the 15K bike. Any day of the week.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

openwheelracing wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:38 am

I do know. That 15K bike has more margin than a $5K bike. Both the shop and manufacturer prefer to sell you the 15K bike. Any day of the week.

Of course they would, but guess what?

1) It's exceedingly rare for an impressionable new cyclist to plop down $13K on a bike.
2) Shops don't sell very many $13K bikes. The local Trek dealer probably sells >100 $800 FXs for every $13000 Madone SLR. They sell helmets, shoes, jerseys, pumps, extra tubes, saddle bags, lights, chain lube, etc. with each individual bike sale too.
3) A shop has incentive to sell you a rotting rim-brake bike because they want it out of sight, out of mind. The longer it festers on the shop floor, the less likely it will ever sell.

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

^ which reminds me... my LBS gets broken into on a regular basis. Rim brake bikes never get stolen.
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tomato
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by tomato

openwheelracing wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:38 am
tomato wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:04 am
You don't know the margins for either rim brake bikes or disc brake bikes. Either one could have a higher margin than the other and, if there is a difference, it's very small.

Regardless, if there really was a large unmet demand for rim brake bikes, a lone company that stepped up and made them would rake in the cash. That's business 101.
I do know. That 15K bike has more margin than a $5K bike. Both the shop and manufacturer prefer to sell you the 15K bike. Any day of the week.
You think disc brake bikes cost $15k and rim brake bikes cost $5k?
Last edited by tomato on Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


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openwheelracing
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:41 am

by openwheelracing

Okay okay you guys got me. A 5k disc bike has more margin than a 15k rim bike. Or as you would argue "very similar margins".

Like I said, these threads are always ruined by the same posters being rude.

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