Factor O2 VAM Review

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

On rim brake frame the braking load is distributed between the two seatstays equally. On a disk brake frame the braking load is distributed only on the left seatstay and left chainstay. So at a minimum the left rear triangle needs extra reinforcements. I would think the right triangle also would receive some reinforcement as well so that the bike's stiffness doesn't become too asymmetrical. This implies the O2 VAM disk would be stiffer than the O2 VAM rim. Perhaps the reason why Factor didn't want to steer you towards the O2 VAM disk is to avoid you being disappointed again.

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jlok
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by jlok

To OP, very nice and informative review, and nice build!

Regarding carbon layup, I think we could only see the supervisual / top layer but cannot see the middle layers? Even if we do X-Ray scan we could only see if there's any void but how the layers arranged (e.g. what kind of carbon fiber cloth at what location at which layer) could not be determined? But yea, if Factor owns factories, they can directly involve in the development. Most brands don't even own a frame factory and rely on know-how of OEM.

Anyway, from your review (and the others' comments) it's once again proves that lighter is not always better, and it sounds like carbon fiber technology has not been advanced enough to improve ride quality (enough stiffness / strength) sustaintially. Hope you enjoy your ride!
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:12 am
On rim brake frame the braking load is distributed between the two seatstays equally. On a disk brake frame the braking load is distributed only on the left seatstay and left chainstay. So at a minimum the left rear triangle needs extra reinforcements. I would think the right triangle also would receive some reinforcement as well so that the bike's stiffness doesn't become too asymmetrical. This implies the O2 VAM disk would be stiffer than the O2 VAM rim. Perhaps the reason why Factor didn't want to steer you towards the O2 VAM disk is to avoid you being disappointed again.
All this makes sense but of course if you are the company building the bikes, you should make the rim version adequately stiff regardless of how stiff a disc version may be.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I think this was a case of the company making the frame good enough for 95% of the people. If they had targeted 99.5% the frame would be 150g heavier and wouldn’t sell well. You just happened to be in the 5%. I agree with you that they should have looked at a stiffer layup for the larger sizes. Perhaps that was already done but still not enough. I guess we’ll never know the answer.


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ichobi
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by ichobi

I would put that 5% down to may be 2-3%. People like us are hard to find, and hard to please.

I think there's a reason many brands stop their frame weight diet rampage at around 800g because it's very difficult to make a lighter frame to perform well at all tasks and across the size range, and also to work well for people at all shape and size. Especially if you are going for modern tube shape (a bit aero etc) rather than round tubes like the Aethos (circle tube is the stiffest shape there is).

The Cervelo RCA being an exception I think. But that thing costs 10,000 a pop and not mass produced. Even the canyon ultimate cfr, some heavier riders still find that lacking stiffness.

mrlobber
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by mrlobber

I have the O2 VAM Disc in size 56, sitting at 6.14kg (wheels are 35x26mm tubulars).

On flat (my usual) terrain, it consistently cruises along with speeds, what I would call "semi-aero", i.e., slower than a full-blown aero bike (say, Venge, Systemsix or S5), but quite a bit faster than classic rim brake bikes, such as Supersix Evo.

On mountains, this year was the first one for me when I was there on discs, and felt really good descending (which I am definitely no expert), was also faster than my friends (also on discs) when we compared the Strava segments over several days later (to clarify, there wasn't any pre-trip thoughts of any internal type of competition, "who is faster on descents"). In comparison, switched to the Sworks SL6 rim on the same trip as well, and nowhere did I fell as confident as on the Factor on the descents. However, I must admit part of this feeling (at least subconsciously) was formed also to the rear skippy Veloflex tyre (ProTour 25mm tub) on the SL6, which I've now committed to never ever bring back to the mountains.

I weigh around 73 kg, and can't put out anything north of 4 W/kg for any serious sustainable periods of time. For me, the O2 VAM Disc has for a moment paused the desire to search / switch to other similar "light disc climbing" bikes, and, if previously I was presented the choice of only one bike to be kept, the O2 VAM has now overtaken that spot from the Sworks SL6 rim, which previously was tied with AX Vial Evo Ultra (also rim).

A small minus: the O2 can't really run bigger rubber than actual 30mm tyres. 32mm would likely fit (haven't tried), but with the risk of scratching the frame already. Also, my O2 had the DS driveside cup (Ceramicspeed supplied with the frame) slipping out; fixed that by pressing in an extra Hambini BB shell I had lying around, all good since then.
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Lina
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by Lina

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:01 am
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:12 am
On rim brake frame the braking load is distributed between the two seatstays equally. On a disk brake frame the braking load is distributed only on the left seatstay and left chainstay. So at a minimum the left rear triangle needs extra reinforcements. I would think the right triangle also would receive some reinforcement as well so that the bike's stiffness doesn't become too asymmetrical. This implies the O2 VAM disk would be stiffer than the O2 VAM rim. Perhaps the reason why Factor didn't want to steer you towards the O2 VAM disk is to avoid you being disappointed again.
All this makes sense but of course if you are the company building the bikes, you should make the rim version adequately stiff regardless of how stiff a disc version may be.
Not necessarily. The goal Factor had when making the VAM was to make the bike as light as possible. And they've done a great job at that, although it comes at the cost of stiffness which hurts the few people that push their bikes close to the limit. But if they had added more material to stiffen it up it wouldn't be as light. And it wouldn't sell nearly as well. The VAM surely is a great bike for what it's supposed to be, a super lightweight bike. If your only criteria is weight then it's a great frame.

The problem is that you can't find any information about its lack of stiffness anywhere. Not from Factor and I'd argue even more importantly not from any of the bike "journalists" out there. They're supposed to review the bikes but practically all of them just regurgitate whatever marketing speak they're fed by the manufacturer and you won't find a negative word about any bike from any of them. And if you look at the journalists it's obvious most of them don't even ride a lot. The entire bike "journalism" business is one large external marketing department of bike manufacturers.

spud
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by spud

^ I don't read a lot of journalist bike reviews. But as I recall, they most often comment on the finishing kit of a complete bike, rather than the fundamental qualities of the frameset. Useful for newbies, but not so much for someone who is going to customize all the touch points as well as the tires.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

ichobi wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:06 am
I would put that 5% down to may be 2-3%. People like us are hard to find, and hard to please.

I think there's a reason many brands stop their frame weight diet rampage at around 800g because it's very difficult to make a lighter frame to perform well at all tasks and across the size range, and also to work well for people at all shape and size. Especially if you are going for modern tube shape (a bit aero etc) rather than round tubes like the Aethos (circle tube is the stiffest shape there is).

The Cervelo RCA being an exception I think. But that thing costs 10,000 a pop and not mass produced. Even the canyon ultimate cfr, some heavier riders still find that lacking stiffness.
IIRC the VAM is designed and to some extent built by the same people who created the RCa, and it is done with all the knowledge and technological advances accumulated by those same people in the last 10 years. I'd offer that the O2 VAM is significantly more advanced which is why the whole experience was so frustrating - the bike is very special but just not stiff enough - it was hard to part with.

No doubt many light bikes are not for everybody but before we get too carried away with the bigger rider thing, I am only 183 cm and 76kg (170lb), so no clyde. I think Factor mis-calculated on the O2 VAM rim brake, and I think they gamble that most people would tolerate that amount flex. Perhaps they are correct, but if work for Factor and I test that bike coming out of the factory, no way I release it to the public without at least strengthening the rear end. Odds are they were already committed to production at that point so went with it. Complaints were at a manageable level so they are sticking with it. This approach may be superior economically and thus completely understandable. It's a business.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I chime in again, that is likely why Ax revised the Vial Evo a few times. Sure, you add weight, i've had 3 Ax bikes, i know which is the better.
Lowest weight isn't key, it's what is best and still light. I guess what Gib says is something i can comprehend. I would look at VAM 02 over Ostro.
But in disc version.
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Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

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MattMay
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by MattMay

I’m as well on the new 02 VAM disc (requires integrated handlebar) 56cm and I echo Mrlobber. I’m also 75kg, not the most aggressive descender. I don’t perceive the flex OP notes, but I’m coming from a 3T Exploro (original, not RaceMax). Maybe the noted flex is part of why this bike feels so comfortable for me. Sure love the weight, 6.3 kg all in.

5DII
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by 5DII

I do wonder why the superlight frames are flexier if they use high mod fibers which are supposed to be stiffer?

tjvirden
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by tjvirden

5DII wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:40 pm
I do wonder why the superlight frames are flexier if they use high mod fibers which are supposed to be stiffer?
It's a simple question of the modulus (stiffness) of the material in combination with the amount of it that gives the stiffness of the finished product. That when comparing identical shapes, fiber orientations etc.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

One of my friends broke his Canyon Ultimate Evo just riding along. He stopped at a red light and when the light turned green he set off. Ten feet later the DS chainstay broke in half. The bike has never been crashed. Canyon replaced his frame under warranty. He's about 170lb and puts out decent wattage in a sprint. On a super lightweight frame the margin of error is much smaller.

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bikeboy1tr
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by bikeboy1tr

Congrats on the Disc version and I think its a beauty. I am glad to see that Factor was so good to work with on exchanging frames for something that is more suitable although maybe not the lightweight that you ultimately wanted but still 7kg for a disc build is not so bad in that frame size.
I purchased a V2R in disc version and comparing it to my V2R in rim brake the difference that I can see is in the disc fork which is 3mm taller than my rim brake and also the additional 42gr in weight meaning more reinforcement obviously. The rear stays on the disc have more material surrounding the TA but the chain and seat stays appear to be close in size between the two. The two frames have a difference of 50gr in weight for the disc. When riding the disc version(Bora One 35-Disc and Bora Ultra 35-Rim) the fork feels more ridgid right off the get go which gives it a little more harshness on the front end. In the hills the two bikes feel pretty close but the disc is much nicer for braking in the bigger hills and one finger braking with good modulation is a nice bonus. I am also a bigger rider at 183cm and 78kg but not big power so even though the V2R is a stiffer frame its not a big deal for a big rider like myself.
I would also think that the heavier Expert and Pro frames of the Aethos would make them a little less flexy compared to the lighter S Works frameset so it would be nice to see a comparison of those two frames on like components and wheels.
At any rate I hope you enjoy the new disc bike better even though it is a bit heavier Mr Gib.
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2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
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