Lightweight tubes and tires vs lightweight tubeless tires

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

User avatar
naylor343
Posts: 416
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:46 pm
Location: Haute-Ariege, Midi-Pyrenees

by naylor343

edchristoph wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:52 pm
naavt wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:34 pm

(3) It's near impossible to re-fit a used Corsa tire to a different wheel, or same wheel after, e.g., re-taping it as the sidewalls are drenched with sticky latex sealant

While #1 and #2 are "just" aesthetics, #3 is a true pain as you simply cannot re-seat a used tire since its sidewalls are sticking together which prevents the tire beads from popping out of the center channel against the edge of the rim even with an air-shot pump.

Why am I still using them? Specially for the Corsa Race, I love the way they ride and the very confidence inspiring grip level they provide both dry and wet.
I experienced the same but managed to overcome it. Once the tire was fitted and the beads located in the centre channel, I wrapped a 40mm wide ratchet strap around the wheel covering the tire and tightened fairly tightly, but not completely. This forced the beads into contact with tubeless tape. Then when inflating with, in my case a compressor, the tire inflated and in doing so eventually forces the strap off to one side. Not an ideal solution, but a solution none the less.

BigBoyND
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 1:51 am
Location: Seoul, KR

by BigBoyND

neeb wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:19 pm
I simply have no incentive to try tubeless. I get a puncture less often than once every 1500 miles (usually a pinch flat from bottoming out on a particularly bad unnoticed pothole) - 10 minutes swapping the tube and that's it.

I use latex tubes, which with clinchers are effectively just as fast as tubeless.

Why should I bother with tubeless? I even find the idea of it faintly repsulsive, all of that goo, and never quite knowing how much is in there or what it's doing.. I also like swapping tyres about for different purposes. Sounds as if that would be a bit of a hassle with tubeless..
Tubeless isn't for everyone and you may fall squarely in that camp. If you almost never flat while riding at a comfortably low pressure, then tubeless is just heavier, messier, and more hassle.
2019 Spec Venge 58cm <6.9kg target
- R9270, Quarq, i9.65, Look Xpro
2021 Canyon Speedmax Disc CF8 XL heavy
- R8000, P2M, SwissSide 62/80, Speedplay Aero

Retired:
2020 Pina Prince 59.5cm 7.4kg
2017 Cervélo P5 58cm heavy

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



TobinHatesYou
Posts: 8835
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

And on the flip side of the coin, I used to flat maybe once a month with inner tubes, then basically never flatted again with tubeless. My tires have gone soft, but remained rideable. Since most of my rides are no-wait hammerfest group rides, stopping to replace a tube basically ruins my day/mood. I was using Pro One TTs for the last 1800km and because they're super fragile, I suffered something like 18 punctures in 9 weeks. None of them prevented me from finishing my group rides, though two went <30psi and one went <50psi. All the rest lost maybe 5psi each. I used 3 DynaPlugs before giving up on those tires. With just about any other tubeless tire I was getting statistically zero punctures year-over-year, and that's entirely worth it compared to getting maybe 9-10 punctures on 16000-18000km a year.

Basscadet
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:38 pm

by Basscadet

Just short of 7000 miles on 2 bikes, both with tubeless tires. Never had a flat. All those rides never being stranded, never having to carry a bunch of nonsense to repair/replace a tire with me, never have to worry about it. Whatever extra speed I am allegedly giving up to ride tubless is a price I will happily pay to not just HASSLE with tubes.

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 1484
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

Seems to be there are two options and neither one is a bad one. For everyone that gives their opinion on what is best, there is someone that says they are wrong. I've seen sealer not work and it was messy, I mean really really messy. I've seen tube leak too. Never seen a messy tube. Yeah, I guess if the sealer did work, I would never know, I get that. I just can't get that memory of white crap all over his bike and body.

I'm still holding back on tubeless. I would rather be dropped with a flat tire and swapping a tube vs being dropped with a flat tire, installing a tube, and sealer all over me and the bike. Talk about ruining a day/mood. I rarely get a flat but this year, I've had more than I have had in the last 10 years combined.

Either way, I think we are all grown up and can pick our poison. I personally would rather drink beer.

User avatar
neeb
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

It's definitely one of those things where different solutions will suit different people. In my case punctures aren't much of an problem so tubeless would be more problems. If I was riding on roads with lots of glass on them it would be different no doubt, or perhaps if the local geology was different..

I do think that the number of punctures you have with clinchers has a lot to do with how obsessive you are about tyre wear, fitting and pressures. Because I'm running latex tubes my pressures are always checked (and so optimal) before every ride. I'll replace tyres before they are excessively worn, and I'm very pedantic about tyre fitting (I think a lot of punctures are caused by inexperienced people damaging tubes when fitting or removing tyres).

Let's just hope that we all continue to have a choice in terms of the options offered on new bikes and equipment, and in the development of new equipment. Unlike the situation with disc brakes..

edchristoph
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:40 am

by edchristoph

edchristoph wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:52 pm
naavt wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:34 pm

(3) It's near impossible to re-fit a used Corsa tire to a different wheel, or same wheel after, e.g., re-taping it as the sidewalls are drenched with sticky latex sealant

While #1 and #2 are "just" aesthetics, #3 is a true pain as you simply cannot re-seat a used tire since its sidewalls are sticking together which prevents the tire beads from popping out of the center channel against the edge of the rim even with an air-shot pump.

Why am I still using them? Specially for the Corsa Race, I love the way they ride and the very confidence inspiring grip level they provide both dry and wet.
I experienced the same but managed to overcome it. Once the tire was fitted and the beads located in the centre channel, I wrapped a 40mm wide ratchet strap around the wheel covering the tire and tightened fairly tightly, but not completely. This forced the beads into contact with tubeless tape. Then when inflating with, in my case a compressor, the tire inflated and in doing so eventually forces the strap off to one side. Not an ideal solution, but a solution none the less.
^^^^This is exactly what I do to get TLR tires with cotton-casings safely mounted. Works extremely well particularly for fitting difficult tire/rim combinations.
In my case, however, it did not help when trying to refit a used Corsa tire with sticky sidewalls. But then again the 21mm internal width of my rims doesn't help either in this case.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 8835
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

neeb wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:25 pm
It's definitely one of those things where different solutions will suit different people. In my case punctures aren't much of an problem so tubeless would be more problems. If I was riding on roads with lots of glass on them it would be different no doubt, or perhaps if the local geology was different..

I do think that the number of punctures you have with clinchers has a lot to do with how obsessive you are about tyre wear, fitting and pressures. Because I'm running latex tubes my pressures are always checked (and so optimal) before every ride. I'll replace tyres before they are excessively worn, and I'm very pedantic about tyre fitting (I think a lot of punctures are caused by inexperienced people damaging tubes when fitting or removing tyres).

Let's just hope that we all continue to have a choice in terms of the options offered on new bikes and equipment, and in the development of new equipment. Unlike the situation with disc brakes..

Make sure when you tell people they’re doing it wrong, that what you’re saying actually makes sense.

You are LESS likely to get a puncture with lower pressures when running over debris and glass because the tire will be more likely to deform. These were my most common type of punctures, not snakebites. And nope on worn tires. The tire that led me to switch to tubeless was the original Vittoria Corsa G+. It had 1600km on it before it started puncturing noticeably more often here. Some of us ride a lot and ride in urban environments with urban waste.

Don’t be so fearful, inner tubes are not going away and the fastest tire on BRR’s website is a tubeless tire. Combine that tire with a latex tube and it’s still just as fast.

Fast forward to now and my only flats ever are caused by snakebites in races where a huge pothole wasn’t called out (often on purpose.)

User avatar
neeb
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:57 pm
Make sure when you tell people they’re doing it wrong, that what you’re saying actually makes sense.

You are LESS likely to get a puncture with lower pressures when running over debris and glass because the tire will be more likely to deform. These were my most common type of punctures, not snakebites. And nope on worn tires. The tire that led me to switch to tubeless was the original Vittoria Corsa G+. It had 1600km on it before it started puncturing noticeably more often here. Some of us ride a lot and ride in urban environments with urban waste.

Don’t be so fearful, inner tubes are not going away and the fastest tire on BRR’s website is a tubeless tire. Combine that tire with a latex tube and it’s still just as fast.

Fast forward to now and my only flats ever are caused by snakebites in races where a huge pothole wasn’t called out (often on purpose.)
You're really quite unnecesarily contrary, which is pretty rude when you're (intentionally?) completely missing the point.

Where did I say that lower pressures make punctures from debris more likely? I didn't. They make snakebite punctures more likely, which, as I said, are the most common type that I get (even if they are still highly unusual).

You may indeed get more punctures from debris and ride a lot in urban environments with urban waste, and tubless may be better for you for that reason. That's exactly what I said.

And as far as worn tyres go, I'm not even quite sure what you're claiming, but most people's experience is that thinner tyres with lots of little holes in them containing embedded grit puncture more often than new ones. It would be a bit weird if they didn't.

User avatar
neeb
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

neeb wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:32 pm
Don’t be so fearful, inner tubes are not going away
That's what eveyone was saying five years ago about rim brakes (in a similarly patronising manner).

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 8835
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

neeb wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:37 pm
neeb wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:32 pm
Don’t be so fearful, inner tubes are not going away
That's what eveyone was saying five years ago about rim brakes (in a similarly patronising manner).

Rim-brakes still exist and will continue to exist for a very long time. DT shifters still exist for that matter. Inner tubes aren’t going away because, unlike rim brakes, they are still the way to get home in the rare case that a tubeless plug fails.

Stop being a fear-mongerer.

And yes, I’m replying contrary to several points you made regarding punctures on clinchers. You are framing it as though tubes puncture do to user error. I’d assume most people posting here aren’t that helpless.

User avatar
neeb
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:44 pm
neeb wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:37 pm
neeb wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:32 pm
Don’t be so fearful, inner tubes are not going away
That's what eveyone was saying five years ago about rim brakes (in a similarly patronising manner).

Rim-brakes still exist and will continue to exist for a very long time. DT shifters still exist for that matter. Inner tubes aren’t going away because, unlike rim brakes, they are still the way to get home in the rare case that a tubeless plug fails.

Stop being a fear-mongerer.
You know very well what I mean. Rim brakes still exist but they have "gone away" from nearly all mid- and high-end new road bikes. Soon we won't even be able to buy high quality rim brake wheels or high-end rim brake groupsets. Five years ago everyone who was pushing disc brakes was saying that would never happen.

Now we are seeing bikes from the mainstream brands sold ready-fitted with beadless, ultra-wide tubeless-only rims. Who says that won't become universal in a few years time, especially as they are cheaper and easier to manufacture?

User avatar
neeb
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:44 pm
And yes, I’m replying contrary to several points you made regarding punctures on clinchers. You are framing it as though tubes puncture do to user error. I’d assume most people posting here aren’t that helpless.
Tubes do often puncture due to user error. 5 or 10 psi less in the tyres will make them significantly more likely to pinch flat and many people don't check pressures as often as they should. An awful lot of people seem to have problems fitting and removing "impossibly tight" clincher tyres, presumably because they've never mastered the bead-rolling-with-thumbs technique and are hacking about with tyre levers when installing tyres.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 8835
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

And frankly replacing tires with otherwise usable tread life left because they start puncturing more often was a huge turn off to me. Replacing Corsa clinchers at 2000km vs replacing Corsa tubeless at 4500km when the tread finally wore down to the casing, that was a huge reason for making the switch. I am able to run Corsa Speeds as daily drivers in the SF metro area.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



User avatar
neeb
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:30 pm
And frankly replacing tires with otherwise usable tread life left because they start puncturing more often was a huge turn off to me. Replacing Corsa clinchers at 2000km vs replacing Corsa tubeless at 4500km when the tread finally wore down to the casing, that was a huge reason for making the switch. I am able to run Corsa Speeds as daily drivers in the SF metro area.
Whatever, personal preference.

But the fact you are in the SF Bay Area says a lot.. People in the UK moan a lot about the state of the roads, but some of the worst road surfaces I've ever experienced were in the Berkeley Hills when I was there for a couple of summers... Not just the ruts and potholes, but the draggy, rough surfaces.. I'd probably want to ride 30mm tubless tyres there too..

Post Reply