So this may have been covered and it may sound stupid but.
I ride 52-36 chain rings and 28-11 on the back .
my average cadence and therefore my natural cadence is around 80-85.
Im a grinder, but i often feel like Im runing out of gears going hard on the flat as i have to increase my cadence to get any speed up from a certain level and cant sit at my natural cadence then.
Is this a fitness thing? I just need to work on cadence drills to ride at higher cadence?
Or would i be better suited to bigger chain rings taking into account my natural cadence is to grind at 80 rpm?
Has anyone else with low natural cadence had the same feeling and gone up to 53-39
Chain Ring Size vs Cadence
Moderator: robbosmans
You mean you run out of gears when riding 52-11 on the flat? 53 won't help you a lot, we are entering pro TT territory here.
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Aerohead23
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:35 am
Ah im not, i just have to go up to 100 cadence or higher, to speed up, i want to stick to my 85 cadnce and i think the 53 would help keep a lower cadence
Why can't you just shift to a smaller cog in the back to lower cadence?
It seems to be that it's natural to increase cadence to accelerate.
It seems to be that it's natural to increase cadence to accelerate.
If you need a cadence drill,
I normally do:
30 seconds each of 50-60-70-80-90-100-110-120-130-140-150 cadence. Then go back from 150 down to 50 again. My actual max is over 190rpm, but that's only attainable for less than 10 seconds and is very inefficient. So anything above 150rpm is not included in my training.
My natural cadence is 89-105 rpm but I need to still function when I run out of gear and have to grind at 50rpm uphill as well as spin up to 130rpm when needed.
Mind you, if you need to use 110rpm with power, you have to practice up to 130rpm with no power.
Fastest you can spin can't be efficient. It's a fair bit down from your max that is good to use so overshoot your training. Practice up to 130rpm to actually spin at 110.
52 vs 53t is barely any different. It's less than 2%. From 100rpm down to 98 for example. So don't waste your time.
I normally do:
30 seconds each of 50-60-70-80-90-100-110-120-130-140-150 cadence. Then go back from 150 down to 50 again. My actual max is over 190rpm, but that's only attainable for less than 10 seconds and is very inefficient. So anything above 150rpm is not included in my training.
My natural cadence is 89-105 rpm but I need to still function when I run out of gear and have to grind at 50rpm uphill as well as spin up to 130rpm when needed.
Mind you, if you need to use 110rpm with power, you have to practice up to 130rpm with no power.
Fastest you can spin can't be efficient. It's a fair bit down from your max that is good to use so overshoot your training. Practice up to 130rpm to actually spin at 110.
52 vs 53t is barely any different. It's less than 2%. From 100rpm down to 98 for example. So don't waste your time.
Last edited by Hexsense on Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You are very strong: in 52-11 at 85 rpm you exceed 51 km/h, at 100 rpm it's >60 km/h. Get a pro contract already;-)
Changing from 52-11 to 53-11 reduces cadence by 1.9%, not much at all. If you want a cadence of 85 at 60 km/h, you need 61-11
Changing from 52-11 to 53-11 reduces cadence by 1.9%, not much at all. If you want a cadence of 85 at 60 km/h, you need 61-11
Next: about higher cadence to accelerate (doesn't matter what speed).
Yes, that's normal. Pedaling motion can be either power limited or torque limited. Power limit doesn't need explanation. You can't hold too high power for very long or your body explode.
Torque is included in the power already but it's also dedicated limit of the leg.
Think of this: Let say 80rpm at 400watts is where you cruise. If you try to hold 1rpm at 400 watts it's just impossible because it'd require 80 times more torque out of your legs which is too much.
Now, say you want 800w power out of your legs to accelerate. You can increase the torque by 100% so that it's still 80rpm but now produce 800w. However, that assume you don't hit torque limit... Let say you hit your torque limit at 600w at 80rpm but you still want 800w, then you have no choice but to also increase cadence by 33% to reach 800w.
Yes, that's normal. Pedaling motion can be either power limited or torque limited. Power limit doesn't need explanation. You can't hold too high power for very long or your body explode.
Torque is included in the power already but it's also dedicated limit of the leg.
Think of this: Let say 80rpm at 400watts is where you cruise. If you try to hold 1rpm at 400 watts it's just impossible because it'd require 80 times more torque out of your legs which is too much.
Now, say you want 800w power out of your legs to accelerate. You can increase the torque by 100% so that it's still 80rpm but now produce 800w. However, that assume you don't hit torque limit... Let say you hit your torque limit at 600w at 80rpm but you still want 800w, then you have no choice but to also increase cadence by 33% to reach 800w.
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Aerohead23
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:35 am
That's awesome advice thanksHexsense wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:59 pmIf you need a cadence drill,
I normally do:
30 seconds each of 50-60-70-80-90-100-110-120-130-140-150 cadence. Then go back from 150 down to 50 again. My actual max is over 190rpm, but that's only attainable for less than 10 seconds and is very inefficient. So anything above 150rpm is not included in my training.
My natural cadence is 89-105 rpm but I need to still function when I run out of gear and have to grind at 50rpm uphill as well as spin up to 130rpm when needed.
Mind you, if you need to use 110rpm with power, you have to practice up to 130rpm with no power.
Fastest you can spin can't be efficient. It's a fair bit down from your max that is good to use so overshoot your training. Practice up to 130rpm to actually spin at 110.
52 vs 53t is barely any different. It's less than 2%. From 100rpm down to 98 for example. So don't waste your time.
Another note about natural cadence. Natural cadence tend to scale sub-linear with power.
At less than 100w, I'm most efficient at ~85rpm.
100-150, I prefer ~90rpm.
150-250, I prefer ~95rpm.
over 250 I prefer over 100rpm.
When the work is easy, it's wasteful to spin legs so fast doing no work. When the work is hard, It's more efficient to split the work throughout more reps (higher cadence that require less muscle peak power). So, when you say you have a natural cadence at 80-85. That's natural cadence at a certain power. When you need more power the higher cadence may become your most efficient cadence. This is especially true when you hit a torque limit. Either you spin faster or you tear your muscle.
At less than 100w, I'm most efficient at ~85rpm.
100-150, I prefer ~90rpm.
150-250, I prefer ~95rpm.
over 250 I prefer over 100rpm.
When the work is easy, it's wasteful to spin legs so fast doing no work. When the work is hard, It's more efficient to split the work throughout more reps (higher cadence that require less muscle peak power). So, when you say you have a natural cadence at 80-85. That's natural cadence at a certain power. When you need more power the higher cadence may become your most efficient cadence. This is especially true when you hit a torque limit. Either you spin faster or you tear your muscle.
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TobinHatesYou
- Posts: 12572
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm
Hexsense wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:12 pmAnother note about natural cadence. Natural cadence tend to scale sub-linear with power.
At less than 100w, I'm most efficient at ~85rpm.
100-150, I prefer ~90rpm.
150-250, I prefer ~95rpm.
over 250 I prefer over 100rpm.
When the work is easy, it's wasteful to spin legs so fast doing no work. When the work is hard, It's more efficient to split the work throughout more reps (higher cadence that require less muscle peak power). So, when you say you have a natural cadence at 80-85. That's natural cadence at a certain power. When you need more power the higher cadence may become your most efficient cadence. This is especially true when you hit a torque limit. Either you spin faster or you tear your muscle.
For me it’s a much wider range and also changes with momentum/speed. Generally on flat ground it’s:
120W = 70rpm
150W = 75rpm
180W = 80rpm
210W = 85rpm
240W = 90rpm
280W = 95rpm
320W = 100rpm
360W = 105rpm
400+ = 110rpm
Sprint = 115rpm (peak 120rpm)
Also in fast groups or races, cadence will be higher as I shift down to lower gears in corners to prep for quick accelerations.
There is in fact an interesting chart on this page, by dr. Ferrari (yes him):
https://www.53x12.com/high-rpm-further-observations
I'd say the horizontal axis would need to be scaled to FTP which for his data set would be roughly 450 watts I suppose.
That would loosely suggest following ideal cadences, which are quite in line with how I experience this myself:
% FTP Cadence
35% 60
45% 65
55% 70
65% 80
80% 85
90% 90
100% 95
110% 105
(sorry, table formatting is beyond me in this editor)
https://www.53x12.com/high-rpm-further-observations
I'd say the horizontal axis would need to be scaled to FTP which for his data set would be roughly 450 watts I suppose.
That would loosely suggest following ideal cadences, which are quite in line with how I experience this myself:
% FTP Cadence
35% 60
45% 65
55% 70
65% 80
80% 85
90% 90
100% 95
110% 105
(sorry, table formatting is beyond me in this editor)
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