Latex vs tubeless

[twoangstroms]

Data point: due to just what tires I had, I was running latex tubes on my gravel bike (had previously been running tubeless). But for an upcoming event, I got a set of bigger tubeless-ready tires and was trying to set them up last night. The front went fine, but I realized I had big enough dings in the rear rim that I couldn't seat the tire.

The result: I will now have the front as tubeless and the rear with a latex tube (that I hope is big enough). Living the thread title.

[MikeD]

Since punctures occur in one revolution of the wheel, wiping tires is a useless exercise and can be dangerous if you get your hand caught between the rear tire and the frame.

What?? Punctures in one revolution? Haven’t you even removed small silex from your tires? Some that didn’t penetrate the puncture protection layer, some that started cutting it?

Get your hand caught? Never ever seen this, you really need to be goofy for this to happen …

What's a silex?

If it didn't penetrate it probably won't. It's not worth shredding your hand or getting it caught and crashing by wiping tires while riding the bike; especially the rear tire. It's an old practice that doesn't even work. Jobst Brandt said as much https://stason.org/TULARC/sports/bicycl ... Tires.html

When I was a noob, I used these things called Tire Savers, which was a piece of wire that rubbed constantly on the tire. They didn't work either. Something like a goat head thorn penetrates instantly.

We're obviously straying a bit from tubeless vs latex, however I think both of your perspectives have merit, but it's not 100% either way - more a question of degree. I'm sure most of the penetration flats I've had occurred from a single "impact" - meaning the puncture occurred instantly, on the first strike of the sharp thing. However I'm also sure that some would have taken a number of wheel revolutions. What I can't be sure of is the ratio of those two possibilities, or the number of wheel revolutions for the latter.

It appears highly likely to me that a goathead or similar will virtually always go through first time. However, modern breakers are surprisingly cut resistant, so I can see a number of pushes need to get a sharp through in some cases. How to quantify? I don't know.

I think Jobst's opinion on this - as we know it - may have been too strong; however, I'm sure modern breakers work much better than what was offered in his riding career, so that change may be a significant difference. In any case, personally I can't be bothered with even trying a Tire Saver type thing.

I think I'd rather believe Jobst Brandt over some random dudes on a forum. I don't wipe and don't think I get any more flats than people that do. Also, I'd rather leave that thorn in until I can find a safe place to fix the flat. If you pull it out, it'll go flat right away. On tubeless, I'd rather leave it in until I get home because I've had tubeless thorn flats that wouldn't seal. As I said, wiping is not without risk of injury too.

The vast majority of flats I get are from goat heads, then glass and the Michelin wire. I can't remember getting a flat from a flint through the tread. Maybe on cheap, unbelted tires I used back in the day. You're not even going to know you had a Michelin wire in your tire anyway until it's too late.

[C36]

I think I'd rather believe Jobst Brandt over some random dudes on a forum.

Yea let me pull a comment made 24 years ago, based on knowledge even older than this… since then, things evolved a bit. You can read more recent literature and maybe will realise that there are not just idiots here

[sgergole]

My experience in racing with tubeless/latex:

So, had a 7 days stage race. Equipment was Campagnolo Bora WTO, tubeless setup with Vittoria Corsa Speed 23mm tyres, sealant and Vittoria inserts (green).
Stage 1, flat on rear wheel on a descent. Sealant doesn't fix it, but I manage to complete the last 10km on a semi-flat wheel thanks to the inserts. Impossible to fix the puncuture with sealant, replaced wheel in race.
Stage 2, flat on the front wheel on a descent at 60-70kph. The Vittoria inserts might have saved me from a nasty fall. Impossible to continue, had to replace the wheel also in this case.

The green insert of Vittoria worket very well, BUT I had to CUT both tyres with scissors and the insert to replace/repair the tyres at the end of the race. Both tyres were brand new (200km the rear and 300km the front..) and it was quite expensive.
I did put latex inner tubes on Vittoria Corsa Graphene 2.0 25mm after these problems with tubeless. Running smoothly since then.

So I don't know. The big advantage of the tubeless... i don't know what it is. The inliner saved me and I am glad I had it. But it was impossible for mechanics that work at the Tour de France to replace/repair the tubeless tyres with the insert in it.

Weight-wise, no advantage in going tubeless. Protection-wise, no advantage again. Cost-wise, it is higher. Problems that you have connected with it, appear to be higher. I don't know, maybe I was unlucky and I am willing to give it one more chance, but for now, for performance, simplicity, cost and usability, latex inner tube is far superior for my taste...

[mrlobber]

I guess, you competed at Haute Route Alps?

Taking TT oriented tyres to a stage race... and in size of 23mm on top of it? Well, given the alternatives, TBH, you asked for trouble yourself. Yes, Corsa Speeds can be surprisingly durable (I have 2k+ km on mine, albeit used with a TT bike), but even then I wouldn't play in the lottery for such an event.

Horses for courses, as the British say.

[sgergole]

I guess, you competed at Haute Route Alps?

Taking TT oriented tyres to a stage race... and in size of 23mm on top of it? Well, given the alternatives, TBH, you asked for trouble yourself. Yes, Corsa Speeds can be surprisingly durable (I have 2k+ km on mine, albeit used with a TT bike), but even then I wouldn't play in the lottery for such an event.

Horses for courses, as the British say.

Yeah, it was the HR Alps. Did the Dolomites afterwards, on Continental GP5000 with same latex inner tubes.

Used the Corsa Speed tyres before in the tubular version, 23mm, they lasted c. 2-3.000 km with no problems or puncutes. Not being able to complete 200km on brand new tyres, of any type on any surface, is just bonkers though... I don't know if it is bad judgement, bad luck or what, but if the tyres don't last 200km, they just....shouldn't be commercially available. Where can you use them, indoor on a trainer? XD

I don't see much difference in a TT vs. non TT race, you are on the same surface anyway, asphalt. And the roads driven were pretty smooth, to be honest.

[sgergole]

I guess, you competed at Haute Route Alps?

Taking TT oriented tyres to a stage race... and in size of 23mm on top of it? Well, given the alternatives, TBH, you asked for trouble yourself. Yes, Corsa Speeds can be surprisingly durable (I have 2k+ km on mine, albeit used with a TT bike), but even then I wouldn't play in the lottery for such an event.

Horses for courses, as the British say.

by the way.. the plan was to make the race with a Colnago V3Rs, disc brakes, Campagnolo Super Record 12s EPS 52-36 with 11-32 cassette, Continental GP5000 on Bora WTO Ultra 45...

24h before my flight, the whole groupset electronic system failed and it was impossible to repair. It took a week to repair it...
Made the race on my spare bike, a Cannondale CAAD10 with Dura Ace 10s groupset 50-34 with a 11-28 cassette, on the wheels of my TT bike (Campagnolo Bora WTO 60, used on a Bianchi Aquila...).

Being able to choose, I would have chosen differently

Just reporting my experience so far on tubeless in racing. Big thumbs up for the inserts, saved me twice.
Used tubeless in normal training, no probles with Extralite wheels so far, a puncture that has been sealed by the sealant (but I had to stop... in a race, stopping is no good anyways..)

[tjvirden]

I guess, you competed at Haute Route Alps?

Taking TT oriented tyres to a stage race... and in size of 23mm on top of it? Well, given the alternatives, TBH, you asked for trouble yourself. Yes, Corsa Speeds can be surprisingly durable (I have 2k+ km on mine, albeit used with a TT bike), but even then I wouldn't play in the lottery for such an event.

Horses for courses, as the British say.

Yeah, it was the HR Alps. Did the Dolomites afterwards, on Continental GP5000 with same latex inner tubes.

Used the Corsa Speed tyres before in the tubular version, 23mm, they lasted c. 2-3.000 km with no problems or puncutes. Not being able to complete 200km on brand new tyres, of any type on any surface, is just bonkers though... I don't know if it is bad judgement, bad luck or what, but if the tyres don't last 200km, they just....shouldn't be commercially available. Where can you use them, indoor on a trainer? XD

I don't see much difference in a TT vs. non TT race, you are on the same surface anyway, asphalt. And the roads driven were pretty smooth, to be honest.

I'd chalk it up primarily to bad luck. What tire pressure were you running and which sealant? Someone who actually uses the same equipment will be able to give you a view....
Tubeless (for use on the road) isn't a mature technology - people do report hiccups and more serious difficulties, but there's no doubt some combinations work well for some people....

[Miller]

Corsa Speeds TLR are tight enough anyway, so to stick inserts inside the 23mm version... brave. I've given up TTing now but in recent years I went over to Corsa Speeds and loved them, 23mm front and 25mm rear. I did a '50' TT I was pleased with in October 2019, the same day the weather went to crap at the Yorkshire Worlds, and the last 15 minutes was in torrential rain. Got back to the car and found my rear tyre had gone squishy. I feel tubeless saved the day that time.

I never used the Corsa Speeds for general riding.

[Mr.Gib]

perhaps the inserts interfered with the sealant's ability to do its job? Corsa Speed 23mm for the Haute Route? That's brave.

I have a lot of both going. My experience with latex has been good (always Vittoria), very few flats, and I have had only good service out of my road tubeless tires - Mavic Yksion Pro UST 28mm (excellent, even during our winter) and Corsa Speed 25mm. I use the Corsa Speeds for my everyday riding and they have surprised me with the fact that they have survived at all, they are so light. Zero punctures, at least none that I have noticed. Already on my second rear after wearing the first one down to the casing. Sidewalls are a bit scuffed because they are on a 21mm internal rim, and there is one tiny spot on the sidewall where a stone has peeled the rubber off and exposed the casing. Looks like a white freckle - that's it. 75 to 80 psi. I'm sure luck is a factor with these. Mrs. Gib on the other hand has had a rash of punctures using butyl inner tubes and while riding with me, so the same roads, same riding conditions. In all the time on tubeless I have had a single incident that required me to stop. A Dynaplug got me going again.

As for performance latex on a supple cloth clincher still wins IMO. The exception is a tire like the Corsa Speed that is so thin that the ride quality matches the best tubulars. But of course it comes with some risk of getting stranded and 1500 km out of a rear tire is about max for me. It might be less than a 1000 km for mostly climbing.

[sgergole]

I guess, you competed at Haute Route Alps?

Taking TT oriented tyres to a stage race... and in size of 23mm on top of it? Well, given the alternatives, TBH, you asked for trouble yourself. Yes, Corsa Speeds can be surprisingly durable (I have 2k+ km on mine, albeit used with a TT bike), but even then I wouldn't play in the lottery for such an event.

Horses for courses, as the British say.

Yeah, it was the HR Alps. Did the Dolomites afterwards, on Continental GP5000 with same latex inner tubes.

Used the Corsa Speed tyres before in the tubular version, 23mm, they lasted c. 2-3.000 km with no problems or puncutes. Not being able to complete 200km on brand new tyres, of any type on any surface, is just bonkers though... I don't know if it is bad judgement, bad luck or what, but if the tyres don't last 200km, they just....shouldn't be commercially available. Where can you use them, indoor on a trainer? XD

I don't see much difference in a TT vs. non TT race, you are on the same surface anyway, asphalt. And the roads driven were pretty smooth, to be honest.

I'd chalk it up primarily to bad luck. What tire pressure were you running and which sealant? Someone who actually uses the same equipment will be able to give you a view....
Tubeless (for use on the road) isn't a mature technology - people do report hiccups and more serious difficulties, but there's no doubt some combinations work well for some people....

Vittoria Sealant and Vittoria Inserts size small. I even texted them to ask if the fit on a Campagnolo WTO wheel is advised for the 23 mm size, with the insert, and their answer was that 23 with size S is the perfect match for the wheel.... Therefore all the "tyre components" were made to work well together, apparently....

[sgergole]

perhaps the inserts interfered with the sealant's ability to do its job? Corsa Speed 23mm for the Houte Route? That's brave.

I have a lot of both going. My experience with latex has been good (always Vittoria), very few flats, and I have had only good service out of my road tubeless tires - Mavic Yksion Pro UST 28mm (excellent, even during our winter) and Corsa Speed 25mm. I use the Corsa Speeds for my everyday riding and they have surprised me with the fact that they have survived at all, they are so light. Zero punctures, at least none that I have noticed. Already on my second rear after wearing the first one down to the casing. Sidewalls are a bit scuffed because they are on a 21mm internal rim, and there is one tiny spot on the sidewall where a stone has peeled the rubber off and exposed the casing. Looks like a white freckle - that's it. 75 to 80 psi. I'm sure luck is a factor with these. Mrs. Gib on the other hand has had a rash of punctures using butyl inner tubes and while riding with me, so the same roads, same riding conditions. In all the time on tubeless I have had a single incident that required me to stop. A Dynaplug got me going again.

As for performance latex on a supple cloth clincher still wins IMO. The exception is a tire like the Corsa Speed that is so thin that the ride quality matches the best tubulars. But of course it comes with some risk of getting stranded and 1500 km out of a rear tire is about max for me. It might be less than a 1000 km for mostly climbing.

the whole idea was: can i get 900km without a flat in brand new corsa speeds with latex and inner tubes? ... the answer was no, 2x XD

[romanmoser]

wouldn't use corsa speed for anything others than hillclimbs and tt
no talking about durability resistance to puncture, they grip very little when it's wet

[bobones]

I've been using Corsa Speed TLRs for general every day riding for the last two summers and, being in the west of Scotland, I see a lot of wet roads. I have never had any issue regarding grip with the Speeds, and they are easily the fasted and smoothest riding tyre I have ever used: on my 60mm Bora WTOs, they truly are a magic carpet ride.

For sure they don't last long: I tend to get around 1100 miles from a rear, but I got 1500 miles from my most recent one; the fronts go on for at least twice that. Yes, they are fragile and rear punctures can be frequent, but most are dealt with by the Orange Seal, and those that are not can be quickly plugged with a Dynaplug. There is no way I'd use them with tubes though.

Merlin Cycles were doing them cheap (£28 each) for a while, which makes them almost economical, but my stash is almost depleted, and I'm not sure what I'll try next when they're all gone. Riding the fastest tyre in the world every day without fear is surely one of the best perks of running tubeless.

[DHG01]

my 'backup' bike (853 steel frame Gunnar Crosshairs with 11 speed Campy drivetrain, Paul V brakes, Rene Herse cranks - a bit heavyish but rides like a dream)

Would be great to see a few pics