Latex vs tubeless

[C36]

I think your lack of flats is entirely dependent on the surfaces/conditions you ride on/in!

Quite wrong. We ran few stats among junior / espoir teams that do all their “long rides” together and 70% of the flat were on 35% of the riders. Some look more than others where they put their wheels, some cleaned their tires each time they felt they ran over something. At the end punctures rates varies even riding on the same roads.

Since punctures occur in one revolution of the wheel, wiping tires is a useless exercise and can be dangerous if you get your hand caught between the rear tire and the frame.

What?? Punctures in one revolution? Haven’t you even removed small silex from your tires? Some that didn’t penetrate the puncture protection layer, some that started cutting it?

Get your hand caught? Never ever seen this, you really need to be goofy for this to happen …

[Gazelleer]

How do you know how long I have been cycling? It's also unnecessary to become personal.

Apparently you feel personally addressed while it is a generic observation based on this thread and many others lately. People who I think, judging by their comments, started cycling only very recently seem very vocal on what's best.

[drainyoo]

It is interesting to see that people who just started cycling and only know tubeless tires, disc brakes and electronic shifting know exactly what’s best for everyone...

And some people who’ve been riding for a while think they know what’s best and that the old tech they’ve been riding can’t be replaced. These are the same people who shun innovation and make up myths about new tech like disc brakes and tubeless.

Cycomanic makes a very valid point and isn’t trolling or dismissing other opinions. Tubeless is superior. It’s just a cold hard fact. But ride your tubes if you want, that’s your choice, obviously.

[Gazelleer]

It is interesting to see that people who just started cycling and only know tubeless tires, disc brakes and electronic shifting know exactly what’s best for everyone...

And some people who’ve been riding for a while think they know what’s best and that the old tech they’ve been riding can’t be replaced. These are the same people who shun innovation and make up myths about new tech like disc brakes and tubeless.

Cycomanic makes a very valid point and isn’t trolling or dismissing other opinions. Tubeless is superior. It’s just a cold hard fact. But ride your tubes if you want, that’s your choice, obviously.

I run tubeless on six bikes; MTB, cross/gravel and road. Like it a lot for MTB, won't go back there. Thus far (two years) good experiences on the road although the ride comfort does not really exceed a good clincher and latex tube. Topping up sealant is a nuisance I'd rather do without. For longer/further gravel rides I like the flat-protection of tubeless but (Dugast) tubulars offer better grip and comfort.

N.B. I have disc brakes on my mountainbikes, gravel/cross and one road bike. For road I am not so sure it is better (yet) than rim brakes. I have used Di2 since 2010 on one road bike and the cross/gravel bike. Went back to mechanical on the road bike long ago and just recently on the cross/gravel.

[Nickldn]

It is interesting to see that people who just started cycling and only know tubeless tires, disc brakes and electronic shifting know exactly what’s best for everyone...

And some people who’ve been riding for a while think they know what’s best and that the old tech they’ve been riding can’t be replaced. These are the same people who shun innovation and make up myths about new tech like disc brakes and tubeless.

Cycomanic makes a very valid point and isn’t trolling or dismissing other opinions. Tubeless is superior. It’s just a cold hard fact. But ride your tubes if you want, that’s your choice, obviously.

I suspect those with long cycling experience usually have a sense of perspective and understand not all new solutions are automatically suitable for everyone, even if they are 'technically' better. The same is true with many things in life and I don't have any time for those who believe only their opinion is right.

I have used tubless, tubular and tubed tyres for a long time and still think tubulars with latex are the best thing ever, for me. On the other hand I can't wait to get rid of the tubed tyres on my other bike in favour of tubless.

But I appreciate YMMV, because everyone's circumstances are different.

[pdlpsher1]

From my experience the flat frequency is highly dependent upon the pressure one is running. One could almost eliminate flats by just dropping the tire pressure.

[MikeD]

I think your lack of flats is entirely dependent on the surfaces/conditions you ride on/in!

Quite wrong. We ran few stats among junior / espoir teams that do all their “long rides” together and 70% of the flat were on 35% of the riders. Some look more than others where they put their wheels, some cleaned their tires each time they felt they ran over something. At the end punctures rates varies even riding on the same roads.

Since punctures occur in one revolution of the wheel, wiping tires is a useless exercise and can be dangerous if you get your hand caught between the rear tire and the frame.

What?? Punctures in one revolution? Haven’t you even removed small silex from your tires? Some that didn’t penetrate the puncture protection layer, some that started cutting it?

Get your hand caught? Never ever seen this, you really need to be goofy for this to happen …

What's a silex?

If it didn't penetrate it probably won't. It's not worth shredding your hand or getting it caught and crashing by wiping tires while riding the bike; especially the rear tire. It's an old practice that doesn't even work. Jobst Brandt said as much https://stason.org/TULARC/sports/bicycl ... Tires.html

When I was a noob, I used these things called Tire Savers, which was a piece of wire that rubbed constantly on the tire. They didn't work either. Something like a goat head thorn penetrates instantly.

[luckypuncheur]

The question is: Could the flats be avoided by using tubes? I'd say: 100% not. It's just bad luck and anecdotal. Roadside repairability is generally not worse with TL once the tires have stretched (but a lot messier, no doubt - would definitely prefer a clincher roadside repair).

From what I've seen in terms of TL punctures: If a Dynaplug can't fix it, inserting a tube might not help either.

FWIW, in 15 years, I had three occasions where I couldn't get home by myself:

- Slashed Continental Competition tubular 50 km after initial installation (glass)
- Slashed Continental GP 4000S sidewall (sharp rock)
- 2 tire blow offs with Challenge Stradia Bianca due to rim/tire incompatibility

I hardly ever puncture regardless of the system (I attribute that to being meticulous about my equipment in general and tires specifically). And I mainly ride Continental and Schwalbe tires inflated to the correct pressure before each ride (and replaced in time). My last roadside repair is ages ago (can't really remember).

I think your lack of flats is entirely dependent on the surfaces/conditions you ride on/in! Tubeless can be excellent, tubes can be excellent - it all depends on what your priorities are........

I think it mainly comes down to appropriare tire choice to be honest (as I've ridden in quite many different places, many of them known for bad roads).

But put that aside: The only real advantages of tubes vs. tubeless are (potentially) easier roadside repairs, peace of mind (no top up required, familiar setup procedure) and weight (negligible). If these are your priorities, tubes are for you.

My main point is that a lot of the stated/reiterated TL disadvantages are not true ANYMORE and that the vast majority of riders is better off with TL.
If people still resort to tubes despite having TL ready equipment - all power to them. Would I lay down a lot of cash to get rid of tubes? Probably not (as they are not a problem).

[C36]

Quite wrong. We ran few stats among junior / espoir teams that do all their “long rides” together and 70% of the flat were on 35% of the riders. Some look more than others where they put their wheels, some cleaned their tires each time they felt they ran over something. At the end punctures rates varies even riding on the same roads.

Since punctures occur in one revolution of the wheel, wiping tires is a useless exercise and can be dangerous if you get your hand caught between the rear tire and the frame.

What?? Punctures in one revolution? Haven’t you even removed small silex from your tires? Some that didn’t penetrate the puncture protection layer, some that started cutting it?

Get your hand caught? Never ever seen this, you really need to be goofy for this to happen …

What's a silex?

If it didn't penetrate it probably won't. It's not worth shredding your hand or getting it caught and crashing by wiping tires while riding the bike; especially the rear tire. It's an old practice that doesn't even work. Jobst Brandt said as much https://stason.org/TULARC/sports/bicycl ... Tires.html

When I was a noob, I used these things called Tire Savers, which was a piece of wire that rubbed constantly on the tire. They didn't work either. Something like a goat head thorn penetrates instantly.

I guess the English term is fint, small sedimentary sharp rocks, often the ones we find on our tires.

Well experience over large amount of riders riding together show differently, for 3 years, the riders that used to swipe their tires had less pictures, and the ones that started doing it did also.

Do you catch them all? Probably No. Do you remove some? Definitively, you feel them so definitively yes.

[C36]

My main point is that a lot of the stated/reiterated TL disadvantages are not true ANYMORE and that the vast majority of riders is better off with TL.
If people still resort to tubes despite having TL ready equipment - all power to them. Would I lay down a lot of cash to get rid of tubes? Probably not (as they are not a problem).

Do we have a rim and tire std that ensure me that a tire will fit easily on all my wheels? Unless something that I am not aware changed in 2021, and brands started to give a d… about QC and rules that works, I can’t remember last time I swear as much as installing 3 pairs of tubeless (Michelin and Conti) on 3 different wheels (Campy, Mavic, Enve). 2 went like a charm, the 4 others… If things go really bad, not a single chance I could replace some on the side of the road.

In short, I pinch at a rhythm that I can manage (less than 1x year currently on a 20 month run), I have multiple (3to5) pairs of wheels, some not used often, I like low RR and low weight. So, even after trying TL on 3 of my wheels, I don’t see the benefit for my current practice.
Sure if I end up with a riding practice that changes my puncture rate, I will do like for my MTB that are all in TL. But until I don’t see the rationality behind TL

[vinc]

Assuming that TL means tubeless, tubeless tires are more expensive than regular clinchers. No need to carry a spare tube? You should because tubeless isn't fool proof. Also, most tubeless tires require sealant to hold air.

About price: for a gp5000 the TL version is about 5 euros more expensive, a latex tube is about 8 euros. So yes the TL version is cheaper, especially considering that on average you will likely need more than 1 tube per tire.

About carying a spare tube, I don't I carry a TL repair kit, much smaller. If I get a flat that can't be repaired with that a spare tube wouldn't have helped either.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk

You forgot the cost of sealant. It isn't cheap and needs to be renewed, unlike a tube.

As mentioned earlier latex tubes need to be replaced as well, but as to cost for sealant 500ml of Schwalbe doc blue is 13euro even if you fill with 60ml every time that's 4 euros a year (that's a high estimate) so you get to the price of the tube +tire combo assuming you don't have any punctures.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk

I’ve heard the new shimano groupsets are 3-5k€ and we’re struggling over a few euros for sealant or inner tubes?


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[C36]

No, I think you misunderstand! Perhaps I could have given more explanation.....
In my experience, what you highlighted about "where they put their wheels" is number one above all else, once people are using "reasonable" setups of all types. And I completely agree with "At the end punctures rates varies even riding on the same roads."

BUT, I have ridden tens of thousands of Kms in France and Italy, with one flat. In South-East England, it's exceptional that I'll go more than 2000 Km before a flat. The pavement surfaces and conditions are completely different and the rate of flats is completely different too - they're linked.

[sheldonsmith]

I think your lack of flats is entirely dependent on the surfaces/conditions you ride on/in!

Quite wrong. We ran few stats among junior / espoir teams that do all their “long rides” together and 70% of the flat were on 35% of the riders. Some look more than others where they put their wheels, some cleaned their tires each time they felt they ran over something. At the end punctures rates varies even riding on the same roads.

Since punctures occur in one revolution of the wheel, wiping tires is a useless exercise and can be dangerous if you get your hand caught between the rear tire and the frame.

Oh who-hash... I have removed glass shards and radial tire wire from my tire before they created a puncture and never had my fingers caught in wheel/frame in my 40 years of pedaling...

[tjvirden]

Quite wrong. We ran few stats among junior / espoir teams that do all their “long rides” together and 70% of the flat were on 35% of the riders. Some look more than others where they put their wheels, some cleaned their tires each time they felt they ran over something. At the end punctures rates varies even riding on the same roads.

Since punctures occur in one revolution of the wheel, wiping tires is a useless exercise and can be dangerous if you get your hand caught between the rear tire and the frame.

What?? Punctures in one revolution? Haven’t you even removed small silex from your tires? Some that didn’t penetrate the puncture protection layer, some that started cutting it?

Get your hand caught? Never ever seen this, you really need to be goofy for this to happen …

What's a silex?

If it didn't penetrate it probably won't. It's not worth shredding your hand or getting it caught and crashing by wiping tires while riding the bike; especially the rear tire. It's an old practice that doesn't even work. Jobst Brandt said as much https://stason.org/TULARC/sports/bicycl ... Tires.html

When I was a noob, I used these things called Tire Savers, which was a piece of wire that rubbed constantly on the tire. They didn't work either. Something like a goat head thorn penetrates instantly.

We're obviously straying a bit from tubeless vs latex, however I think both of your perspectives have merit, but it's not 100% either way - more a question of degree. I'm sure most of the penetration flats I've had occurred from a single "impact" - meaning the puncture occurred instantly, on the first strike of the sharp thing. However I'm also sure that some would have taken a number of wheel revolutions. What I can't be sure of is the ratio of those two possibilities, or the number of wheel revolutions for the latter.

It appears highly likely to me that a goathead or similar will virtually always go through first time. However, modern breakers are surprisingly cut resistant, so I can see a number of pushes need to get a sharp through in some cases. How to quantify? I don't know.

I think Jobst's opinion on this - as we know it - may have been too strong; however, I'm sure modern breakers work much better than what was offered in his riding career, so that change may be a significant difference. In any case, personally I can't be bothered with even trying a Tire Saver type thing.

[tjvirden]

I think it mainly comes down to appropriare tire choice to be honest (as I've ridden in quite many different places, many of them known for bad roads).

But put that aside: The only real advantages of tubes vs. tubeless are (potentially) easier roadside repairs, peace of mind (no top up required, familiar setup procedure) and weight (negligible). If these are your priorities, tubes are for you.

My main point is that a lot of the stated/reiterated TL disadvantages are not true ANYMORE and that the vast majority of riders is better off with TL.
If people still resort to tubes despite having TL ready equipment - all power to them. Would I lay down a lot of cash to get rid of tubes? Probably not (as they are not a problem).

I think this is a pretty good summary.
The tubeless experience is very good for many people now and will improve further I'm sure.