Latex vs tubeless

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sgergole
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:39 am

by sgergole

bobones wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:34 pm
I've been using Corsa Speed TLRs for general every day riding for the last two summers and, being in the west of Scotland, I see a lot of wet roads. I have never had any issue regarding grip with the Speeds, and they are easily the fasted and smoothest riding tyre I have ever used: on my 60mm Bora WTOs, they truly are a magic carpet ride.

For sure they don't last long: I tend to get around 1100 miles from a rear, but I got 1500 miles from my most recent one; the fronts go on for at least twice that. Yes, they are fragile and rear punctures can be frequent, but most are dealt with by the Orange Seal, and those that are not can be quickly plugged with a Dynaplug. There is no way I'd use them with tubes though.

Merlin Cycles were doing them cheap (£28 each) for a while, which makes them almost economical, but my stash is almost depleted, and I'm not sure what I'll try next when they're all gone. Riding the fastest tyre in the world every day without fear is surely one of the best perks of running tubeless. :thumbup:
Had similar feedback also from various people from London. My thoughts were that if it works for them, with all the debris in semi-wet conditions that you usually find in the UK... It could also work in the mountains on smooth tarmac. Now I don't know, I might give them a second try, but the first one was quite unfortunate and expensive...

MikeD
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

TobinHatesYou wrote:
MikeD wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:20 am

Well, I certainly felt the out of balance caused by a dried up puddle in my mountain bike tire.

I just spun my wheels in the stand and the valve ended up in a different position each time. Really doubt I'd feel whatever puddled up sealant is in there.
Here's what I recently pulled out of my tire. It weighs 15g.Image

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Bowser
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:44 pm

by Bowser

TheDoctor wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:18 pm
TheDoctor wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:55 pm
The problem was unseating the first bead; eventually I cut the tire off.

Not the norm, so people should stop presenting it like it is.
I didn't present it as such while you on the other hand seem to doubt that people actually have these experiences ("Why do some people think this is an issue?"), and then go on to basically say it's their own fault for not testing it out in the garage. Well, that's more or less what I did - had to get the tire off at home, found it to be impossible, proceeded to cut it off and went back to latex tubes. Did not want to try out a variety of tubeless tires to see if they would work, and was certainly not going to ditch my expensive Zipps if there is a perfectly good alternative in latex tubes.
Just realize that your positive experience with latest gen Zipps and pro ones may also not the norm.
I was chatting with my coach about road tubeless, having had a lot of trouble with Veloflex TLR. He was saying they'd had to cut way too many tubless tires from the rim. His feeling was for MTB, tubeless was a total game changer when he first rode them for Mavic 20 years ago, but for road he just didn't see the benefit. A theoretical benefit, but in reality a hugely temperamental solution.

Following out conversation I've parked high pressure (>60PSI) tubeless and I'm going to give latex tubes a go. I've not tried them before.

MikeD
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

Bowser wrote:
TheDoctor wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:59 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:18 pm
TheDoctor wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:55 pm
The problem was unseating the first bead; eventually I cut the tire off.

Not the norm, so people should stop presenting it like it is.
I didn't present it as such while you on the other hand seem to doubt that people actually have these experiences ("Why do some people think this is an issue?"), and then go on to basically say it's their own fault for not testing it out in the garage. Well, that's more or less what I did - had to get the tire off at home, found it to be impossible, proceeded to cut it off and went back to latex tubes. Did not want to try out a variety of tubeless tires to see if they would work, and was certainly not going to ditch my expensive Zipps if there is a perfectly good alternative in latex tubes.
Just realize that your positive experience with latest gen Zipps and pro ones may also not the norm.
I was chatting with my coach about road tubeless, having had a lot of trouble with Veloflex TLR. He was saying they'd had to cut way too many tubless tires from the rim. His feeling was for MTB, tubeless was a total game changer when he first rode them for Mavic 20 years ago, but for road he just didn't see the benefit. A theoretical benefit, but in reality a hugely temperamental solution.

Following out conversation I've parked high pressure (>60PSI) tubeless and I'm going to give latex tubes a go. I've not tried them before.
As someone that has Vittoria latex tubes on a bike, don’t waste your time unless you race. You’ll never notice the slight decrease in rolling resistance or ride quality over light butyl’s, but you will notice that you will be pumping your tires a lot more.

kervelo
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Location: Finland

by kervelo

In addition to the decrease in rolling resistance the latex tubes are also significantly more comfortable to ride.

Bowser
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:44 pm

by Bowser

Thanks MikeD. Having not tried them before it's more a case of wanting to experience them. Keen to see if I can feel this 'magic ride quality' people seem to credit them with! I think I'm prepared for the frequent pumping...

As it happens I do race, the last being mid-August when I wiped out in a corner of a crit in the wet, breaking my left hip :x I was running Turbo Cottons with Specialized Turbo Tubes inside. I certainly found the limit of Turbo Cottons in that moment :cry:
Last edited by Bowser on Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mocs123
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 9:19 pm

by Mocs123

I like latex tubes in my disc brake bikes - you do have to put air in tires more often, but I check my pressure and pump tires before every ride no matter what tube I am running. On my rim brake bike, I am running a light butyl tube but may try tubeless in the spring on that bike.
2015 Wilier Zero.7 Rim - 6.37kg
2020 Trek Emonda SLR-7 Disc - 6.86kg
2023 Specialized SL7 - 7.18kg

MikeD
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

Bowser wrote:Thanks MikeD. Having not tried them before it's more a case of wanting to experience them. Keen to see if I can feel this 'magic ride quality' people seem to credit them with! I think I'm prepared for the frequent pumping...

As it happens I do race, the last being mid-August when I wiped out in a corner of a crit in the wet, breaking my left hip :x I was running Turbo Cottons with Specialized Turbo Tubes inside. I certainly found the limit of Turbo Cottons in that moment :cry:
Do report back on your experience. Don't use Challenge tubes. Too thin and they get all crinkled/misshapen. I recommend Vittoria tubes. Haven't tried others though.


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Yoln
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by Yoln

Love the Corsa Speed TLR, and managed to push them quite far >3kKms with a good amount of luck. But I've also had experience with them not even lasting 500kms. Certainly wouldn't have chosen them for Haute Route...
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JWTS
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:44 pm

by JWTS

C36 wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:15 pm
MikeD wrote: I think I'd rather believe Jobst Brandt over some random dudes on a forum.
Yea let me pull a comment made 24 years ago, based on knowledge even older than this… since then, things evolved a bit. You can read more recent literature and maybe will realise that there are not just idiots here :)
Jobst said plenty of things in the dad voice that people just accepted as fact--but weren't actually true. Case in point is the business of using talc on a latex tube would cause it to "move around" in the tire, creating more rolling resistance. Install heavily talc'd tube. Pump up overnight. Remove the next afternoon (switching tires for a crit).Guess what? tube is still stuck to the tire...

As far as latex tubes, I used them to race on exclusively prior to tubeless. They are faster, and they do feel better. They were absolutey not as reliable for me. I had way too man failures (sometimes where the valve is bonded to the tube, which seemed to be the biggest failure point). I've had rim strips cause flats. I've pinched them during install, depsite a tone of experience with them. For me, tubeless has been way less hassle. I haven't used VF tubelss--just Conti and Schwalbe. But both of those set-ups have been rock solid--training, commuting, racing. Less hassle, more reliable and more flat resistant. Count me in the "sold on road tubeless" group.

MikeD
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

JWTS wrote:
C36 wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:15 pm
MikeD wrote: I think I'd rather believe Jobst Brandt over some random dudes on a forum.
Yea let me pull a comment made 24 years ago, based on knowledge even older than this… since then, things evolved a bit. You can read more recent literature and maybe will realise that there are not just idiots here :)
Jobst said plenty of things in the dad voice that people just accepted as fact--but weren't actually true. Case in point is the business of using talc on a latex tube would cause it to "move around" in the tire, creating more rolling resistance. Install heavily talc'd tube. Pump up overnight. Remove the next afternoon (switching tires for a crit).Guess what? tube is still stuck to the tire...

As far as latex tubes, I used them to race on exclusively prior to tubeless. They are faster, and they do feel better. They were absolutey not as reliable for me. I had way too man failures (sometimes where the valve is bonded to the tube, which seemed to be the biggest failure point). I've had rim strips cause flats. I've pinched them during install, depsite a tone of experience with them. For me, tubeless has been way less hassle. I haven't used VF tubelss--just Conti and Schwalbe. But both of those set-ups have been rock solid--training, commuting, racing. Less hassle, more reliable and more flat resistant. Count me in the "sold on road tubeless" group.
I don’t think Brandt ever said that wrt latex tubes. He used butyl, and he was right wrt them.

tjvirden
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

To add to the differing experiences, I'm currently using Challenge latex tubes to good effect - no complaints so far. I've also put a lot of Kms onto Michelin latex tubes; fine, but so far I prefer the Challenge tubes. I don't think of either as thin; quite a bit thicker than a thin butyl tube (Conti Supersonic).
MikeD wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:49 pm
JWTS wrote: ......
Jobst said plenty of things in the dad voice that people just accepted as fact--but weren't actually true. Case in point is the business of using talc on a latex tube would cause it to "move around" in the tire, creating more rolling resistance. Install heavily talc'd tube. Pump up overnight. Remove the next afternoon (switching tires for a crit).Guess what? tube is still stuck to the tire...
....
I don’t think Brandt ever said that wrt latex tubes. He used butyl, and he was right wrt them.
I think this is correct.

Jobst Brandt's views on latex inner tubes are well documented and entirely uncontroversial. He used them only in tubulars (first few decades of his riding I believe?) and used butyl inner tubes when he switched to clinchers.

He did have strong views on the silliness of using talc on the outside of any sort of tube and I agree with those too.

MikeD
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

If you want to know what Jobst Brandt wrote about stuff, this is a good resource https://yarchive.net/bike/index.html

On the subject of talc on tubes, his contention was that an untalced tube sticks to the casing, and if you flat, it goes flat much slower than a talced tube would, which is safer. I don’t talc butyl tubes but talc latex as you can damage a latex tube when removing it if it’s stuck to the casing.

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dedaciai
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by dedaciai

I was on tubeless road for about 1.5 years and went back to running tubeless tires with latex tubes inside. I got tired of dealing with sealant that only worked about 50% of the time, sealant boogers weighing down my tires/rims, and sealant spray when a flat didn't seal. Also, I still have to carry a tube, patch kit, etc.

Running tubeless with latex tubes inside means I'm still getting all the benefits of low rolling resistance without having to deal with sealant. Plus, latex tubes are easily repairable.

Having said that, I run tubeless on my CX/gravel bike and MTB and would never run tubes in them. The tubeless road technology just isn't up to snuff at the moment when it comes to user friendliness and sealing up anything more than a small stable or tiny thorn hole.

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

dedaciai wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:41 pm
I was on tubeless road for about 1.5 years and went back to running tubeless tires with latex tubes inside. I got tired of dealing with sealant that only worked about 50% of the time, sealant boogers weighing down my tires/rims, and sealant spray when a flat didn't seal. Also, I still have to carry a tube, patch kit, etc.

Running tubeless with latex tubes inside means I'm still getting all the benefits of low rolling resistance without having to deal with sealant. Plus, latex tubes are easily repairable.

Having said that, I run tubeless on my CX/gravel bike and MTB and would never run tubes in them. The tubeless road technology just isn't up to snuff at the moment when it comes to user friendliness and sealing up anything more than a small stable or tiny thorn hole.

Orange Seal rarely makes boogers, so I assume you were using something else?

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