Wilier Filante vs Pinarello Dogma F

[Nickldn]

I upsized when I got my Propel, as I was right in the middle of SX and S frame sizing. I chose an S against the advice of the LBS as stack was quite a lot higher, but reach was just 1cm longer. So I run a 100mm stem and Zipp SL70 short reach bars with 20mm of spacers.

Had I got the XS frame I'd need a lot more spacers (about 50mm) and a longer stem to achieve the same fit.

To be honest I don't regret sizing up, yes there's less seatpost exposed, but also less spacers.

Handling of the Propel with light wheels is plenty fast and nimble, so I doubt that an XS would be better.

It sounds like you may be in between sizes too, if that is the case I think you need choose between more spacers/exposed seatpost/longer stem and less stem/spacers/seatpost. Wouldn't worry about the rest, both sizes will handle well as they are great frames.

[hannawald]

I upsized when I got my Propel, as I was right in the middle of SX and S frame sizing. I chose an S against the advice of the LBS as stack was quite a lot higher, but reach was just 1cm longer. So I run a 100mm stem and Zipp SL70 short reach bars with 20mm of spacers.

Had I got the XS frame I'd need a lot more spacers (about 50mm) and a longer stem to achieve the same fit.

To be honest I don't regret sizing up, yes there's less seatpost exposed, but also less spacers.

Handling of the Propel with light wheels is plenty fast and nimble, so I doubt that an XS would be better.

It sounds like you may be in between sizes too, if that is the case I think you need choose between more spacers/exposed seatpost/longer stem and less stem/spacers/seatpost. Wouldn't worry about the rest, both sizes will handle well as they are great frames.

100mm stem on s sized bike seems completely ok that you are on a right size bike..

[Nickldn]

I upsized when I got my Propel, as I was right in the middle of SX and S frame sizing. I chose an S against the advice of the LBS as stack was quite a lot higher, but reach was just 1cm longer. So I run a 100mm stem and Zipp SL70 short reach bars with 20mm of spacers.

Had I got the XS frame I'd need a lot more spacers (about 50mm) and a longer stem to achieve the same fit.

To be honest I don't regret sizing up, yes there's less seatpost exposed, but also less spacers.

Handling of the Propel with light wheels is plenty fast and nimble, so I doubt that an XS would be better.

It sounds like you may be in between sizes too, if that is the case I think you need choose between more spacers/exposed seatpost/longer stem and less stem/spacers/seatpost. Wouldn't worry about the rest, both sizes will handle well as they are great frames.

100mm stem on s sized bike seems completely ok that you are on a right size bike..

The original S comes with a 90mm stem and Giant bars which have a longer (80mm or so I think) reach, so I swapped for short reach (70mm) Zipp aero bars and compensated with a longer stem. Overall the reach is good for me and I don't need to run many spacers as the S frame has a higher stack than XS. Can get aero on drops.

[survivor]

I didn't look at cockpit details etc. but based on frame sizes Filante M seems too big for you..
Your Pinarello is 527mm top tube while S size Filante is 530mm and M size 543! S size Filante is only 4mm lowe r on stack (521 vs 525).

If you have 3cm of spacers incl. headset cover now on Dogma, it should be ok with S size Filante..you will have headset cover, which will be about 1cm and 25mm of spacers, maybe 30mm of spacers as the bars looks to be an agressive angle on the picture. You see this amount of spacers on review bikes.

Btw just a reminder - you can't compare pure reach numbers from the table as reach is measured at a certain stack height..and due to the front of the bike being angled reach shortens by about 3mm per 1cm of the higher stack..so at a given height (on a smaller sized bike achieved by more spacers under the stem) the difference in reach will be bigger then what you simply see in the geometry chart table.

Dogma seems a bit less aggresive, that's another point for it:)

Thanks for the reminder. I do understand that I cannot compare the reach numbers from the table. Wilier has their Accufit system which measure at Bar X, Y location. I measured my current F8 setup for its Bar X, Y and I'm getting 454mm, 596mm. Comparing that to the Filante Accufit chart, the closest is Size S Filante with 88mm/40cm bar and 35mm spacer, giving me Bar X, Y of 450mm, 596mm. The Bar X, Y reach would be 4mm shorter. Considering the Filante bar only has 68mm bar reach vs my current bar of 80mm, the overall reach should be pulled in by 16mm. On the other hand, Size M Filante with 88mm/40cm bar and 20mm spacer gives me Bar X, Y of 460mm, 597mm. The Bar X, Y reach would be 6mm longer. Considering the bar reach difference of 12mm, that would gives me shorter overall reach by 6mm. Size M has the benefit of 15mm less spacers or if I need to further reducing the reach I can add more spacers. Size S max out at 35mm spacers.

[wheelsONfire]

I didn't look at cockpit details etc. but based on frame sizes Filante M seems too big for you..
Your Pinarello is 527mm top tube while S size Filante is 530mm and M size 543! S size Filante is only 4mm lowe r on stack (521 vs 525).

If you have 3cm of spacers incl. headset cover now on Dogma, it should be ok with S size Filante..you will have headset cover, which will be about 1cm and 25mm of spacers, maybe 30mm of spacers as the bars looks to be an agressive angle on the picture. You see this amount of spacers on review bikes.

Btw just a reminder - you can't compare pure reach numbers from the table as reach is measured at a certain stack height..and due to the front of the bike being angled reach shortens by about 3mm per 1cm of the higher stack..so at a given height (on a smaller sized bike achieved by more spacers under the stem) the difference in reach will be bigger then what you simply see in the geometry chart table.

Dogma seems a bit less aggresive, that's another point for it:)

Thanks for the reminder. I do understand that I cannot compare the reach numbers from the table. Wilier has their Accufit system which measure at Bar X, Y location. I measured my current F8 setup for its Bar X, Y and I'm getting 454mm, 596mm. Comparing that to the Filante Accufit chart, the closest is Size S Filante with 88mm/40cm bar and 35mm spacer, giving me Bar X, Y of 450mm, 596mm. The Bar X, Y reach would be 4mm shorter. Considering the Filante bar only has 68mm bar reach vs my current bar of 80mm, the overall reach should be pulled in by 16mm. On the other hand, Size M Filante with 88mm/40cm bar and 20mm spacer gives me Bar X, Y of 460mm, 597mm. The Bar X, Y reach would be 6mm longer. Considering the bar reach difference of 12mm, that would gives me shorter overall reach by 6mm. Size M has the benefit of 15mm less spacers or if I need to further reducing the reach I can add more spacers. Size S max out at 35mm spacers.

Reach is really measured as full reach, which is bar and stem reach together.
A race bike with fast steering and a very very short cockpit reach means a bike that behaves nervous. Not really ideal.
You also should know that with 1cm spacer you shorten reach by 3mm. So with 30mm of spacers you have almost shorten reach by 10mm.
For your fit you should really pick the bike you need least amount of spacers and where you use the longest stem (and bar = full reach).
This is the reason why i would not buy a race bike, i understand that it doesn't fit me. Pinarello is a less worse, but both bikes seems to long and to low for you.

[survivor]

Reach is really measured as full reach, which is bar and stem reach together.
A race bike with fast steering and a very very short cockpit reach means a bike that behaves nervous. Not really ideal.
You also should know that with 1cm spacer you shorten reach by 3mm. So with 30mm of spacers you have almost shorten reach by 10mm.
For your fit you should really pick the bike you need least amount of spacers and where you use the longest stem (and bar = full reach).
This is the reason why i would not buy a race bike, i understand that it doesn't fit me. Pinarello is a less worse, but both bikes seems to long and to low for you.

Thanks for the feedback! Maybe I need to relook into my bike options

Do you consider 88mm cockpit to be very short? Seems like most common stem length is 90-100mm?

[hannawald]

I don't think it is extreme at 88mm for S sized bike. What comes stock with this size bike when you order full bike? Many 56 bikes comes with 100mm stems..depends on the manufacturer, Cannondales comes with 4cm of spacers maybe more and 100mm stem, some italians like it long and restrict the amount of spacers to 30-35mm max..

[Nickldn]

Don't think 88mm is extreme either. Most size S frames come with a 90mm stem as standard.

The seems to be an obsession with long stems and that is easier to achieve if the frame is a size down.

I would choose a shorter stem than more spacers, but it's down to individual preferences. BTW a long stem can make steering a bit slow and boring, once again it's down to individual preferences, but I prefer a fast steering bike, helps me remember it's a racer and is fun to ride.

[wheelsONfire]

Reach is really measured as full reach, which is bar and stem reach together.
A race bike with fast steering and a very very short cockpit reach means a bike that behaves nervous. Not really ideal.
You also should know that with 1cm spacer you shorten reach by 3mm. So with 30mm of spacers you have almost shorten reach by 10mm.
For your fit you should really pick the bike you need least amount of spacers and where you use the longest stem (and bar = full reach).
This is the reason why i would not buy a race bike, i understand that it doesn't fit me. Pinarello is a less worse, but both bikes seems to long and to low for you.

Thanks for the feedback! Maybe I need to relook into my bike options

Do you consider 88mm cockpit to be very short? Seems like most common stem length is 90-100mm?

If you consider the stem lenght + the bar reach, which i believe is 68mm, then yes, it's very short.
I bought my bike as i currently ride because it is the bike geometry that actually suits me.
How do i figure that you may ask?
I check stack and reach aswell as the trail of the bike. This tells me alot of what i would need to fit myself.
Seatpost you can always work with. But you should always work with a geometry that gives you as good of a handling bike that is possible.
I see that cool bikes have an appeal, but when the bike is built maxing out spacers and super short all in all reach, it's not the frame that is optimal.
It's like investing alot of money in the heart of the bike and i think you be way better off going for a custom or simply look at something that suits you better.
I bet you should fit way better on Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race ( disc has same geometry). These two versions have shorter reach aswell as being a bit higher in stack.
But they are still designed as a race bike, so you will have a light bike that have same feel and response as a race bike.
What you miss out on, is the aero features. But fit should be a better prio to go for. I believe you can build a bike with better respect to handling if you go for a frame that suits your body and your fit, than trying to fit yourself to a bike selling out handling.
The typical race geometry doesn't suit all people, we just need to accept this. Or if you go custom, you can go for a custom geometry and the bike can be designed with suitable trail in conjunction with your stem and bar reach. You can also explain that your bike should have a race feel (that is, if you want that).
Pinarello is so expensive so this amount is well sufficent for a full custom frameset.
I know a guy went from Pinarello to Exept aero bike. You also have Sarto and Wyndymilla.

https://www.wyndymilla.com
https://www.sartobikes.com/en/
https://www.exept.cc

See geometry of Ax disc frames
https://www.benobikes.com/en/bike-parts ... 4ec7fa6917

[Nickldn]

These threads often come down to a recommendation to purchase a custom frame.

Not really sure that's particularly helpful, or realist for many people, especially if they desire a specific bike(s).

There is also the reason why they are asking for help. It's usually because they are unsure about the exact geo that will suit them best and their tolerances of small changes in stack/reach between two frame sizes. Without that knowledge going custom is unlikely to provide a good outcome.

I also think the Willier 88mm + 68mm integrated bars should be OK. If they are grossly unsuitable for a bike like the Filante why are Willer selling them?

[survivor]

If you consider the stem lenght + the bar reach, which i believe is 68mm, then yes, it's very short.
I bought my bike as i currently ride because it is the bike geometry that actually suits me.
How do i figure that you may ask?
I check stack and reach aswell as the trail of the bike. This tells me alot of what i would need to fit myself.
Seatpost you can always work with. But you should always work with a geometry that gives you as good of a handling bike that is possible.
I see that cool bikes have an appeal, but when the bike is built maxing out spacers and super short all in all reach, it's not the frame that is optimal.
It's like investing alot of money in the heart of the bike and i think you be way better off going for a custom or simply look at something that suits you better.
I bet you should fit way better on Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race ( disc has same geometry). These two versions have shorter reach aswell as being a bit higher in stack.
But they are still designed as a race bike, so you will have a light bike that have same feel and response as a race bike.
What you miss out on, is the aero features. But fit should be a better prio to go for. I believe you can build a bike with better respect to handling if you go for a frame that suits your body and your fit, than trying to fit yourself to a bike selling out handling.
The typical race geometry doesn't suit all people, we just need to accept this. Or if you go custom, you can go for a custom geometry and the bike can be designed with suitable trail in conjunction with your stem and bar reach. You can also explain that your bike should have a race feel (that is, if you want that).
Pinarello is so expensive so this amount is well sufficent for a full custom frameset.
I know a guy went from Pinarello to Exept aero bike. You also have Sarto and Wyndymilla.

https://www.wyndymilla.com
https://www.sartobikes.com/en/
https://www.exept.cc

See geometry of Ax disc frames
https://www.benobikes.com/en/bike-parts ... 4ec7fa6917

Stem lenght + the bar reach is 88mm (stem length) + 68mm (bar reach) = 156mm total stem and bar reach, which I think is not consider very short and quite reasonable in bike size S (52) or M (54).

[wheelsONfire]

If you have 30mm spacers you must deduct 10mm of reach from that number. You can consider why there are framesets that better fit you!
There would be no reason for them to exist if there was zero people who would better match alternative geometries.
It's your call, ofcourse you invest your money in what is the best choice for you.

[survivor]

If you have 30mm spacers you must deduct 10mm of reach from that number. You can consider why there are framesets that better fit you!
There would be no reason for them to exist if there was zero people who would better match alternative geometries.
It's your call, ofcourse you invest your money in what is the best choice for you.

Yes I do understand about the 10mm deduction, which can be achieved by a 10mm shorter stem or arguably a 10mm shorter bar reach handlebar, right? Which is why I opt for a 88mm stem and 68mm short bar reach Filante integrated bar. I'm sure there are framesets that better fit IF I want to hold the stem length and bar reach the same as what I have now. I don't care so much about that slammed stem look. What I'm saying is that with the 88mm stem and 68mm short bar reach Filante integrated bar I can achieve what I'm looking for with Filante frame, with only 20mm spacers on the M size frame, where 10mm is already mandatory due to the internal cable routing, so I'm only adding 10mm spacer, which is totally acceptable in my opinion.

[wheelsONfire]

If you have 30mm spacers you must deduct 10mm of reach from that number. You can consider why there are framesets that better fit you!
There would be no reason for them to exist if there was zero people who would better match alternative geometries.
It's your call, ofcourse you invest your money in what is the best choice for you.

Yes I do understand about the 10mm deduction, which can be achieved by a 10mm shorter stem or arguably a 10mm shorter bar reach handlebar, right? Which is why I opt for a 88mm stem and 68mm short bar reach Filante integrated bar. I'm sure there are framesets that better fit IF I want to hold the stem length and bar reach the same as what I have now. I don't care so much about that slammed stem look. What I'm saying is that with the 88mm stem and 68mm short bar reach Filante integrated bar I can achieve what I'm looking for with Filante frame, with only 20mm spacers on the M size frame, where 10mm is already mandatory due to the internal cable routing, so I'm only adding 10mm spacer, which is totally acceptable in my opinion.

I understand. Perhaps Filante carries more appeal to you if you already have been on a Pinarello a few years?
I can certainly understand that cyclists like to have a change to satisfy curiosity.
I would lie if i told you i don't feel that to at times. I just don't feel it's worth the expenses (but that's something else)

[wheelsONfire]

These threads often come down to a recommendation to purchase a custom frame.

Not really sure that's particularly helpful, or realist for many people, especially if they desire a specific bike(s).

There is also the reason why they are asking for help. It's usually because they are unsure about the exact geo that will suit them best and their tolerances of small changes in stack/reach between two frame sizes. Without that knowledge going custom is unlikely to provide a good outcome.

I also think the Willier 88mm + 68mm integrated bars should be OK. If they are grossly unsuitable for a bike like the Filante why are Willer selling them?

If you desire a bike that is less than ideal for your fit and for best handling, pick another bike. Get real and understand that the desire for something should perhaps be based on
fit and handling, not bling! Why is that, well biking becomes more fun when you actually have the bike suiting you the best.

They ask for help, you try to give them help. If they explain how they setup the bike, then you can hopefully say another off the shelf bike suits better for you.
Going off shelf with respects to fit and handling, can also be to go custom.
This pends on if you want custom or if you can find an off the shelf framesets giving you the best handling and best fit.

Manufacturers design what hopefully suit most people (even Wilier). If they design race bikes with long and low frames, it's for people having this fit.
It's nothing wrong liking cool looking race bikes. It's nothing wrong eyeballing two brands.
But if i don't fit into this category because of my fit and with respect to handling, maybe getting real to ourselves and looking for another option is smarter.
For sure going for best fit and best handling you can get, that is key to fun and long time happiness.

I don't ask why Ferrari build cars not suited to pull a caravan. I might just face that it just isn't so and pick something that works better for this task.