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Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:23 am
by Lina
iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:29 am
Alexbn921 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:12 am

People around here spend crazy money on bikes and over 90% are on disks. The only ones that aren’t simple have an older bike and want disk. Out of the 200+ rides I know/ride with, maybe 1 prefers rim brakes.
Sorry, but emotional arguments like this is equally ridiculous to the claims made by the rim group.

You're all engaging in so much hyperbole it's ridiculous. Some people just prefer rim, and even now, there are people with money shelling out $$$$ for brand new rim brake bikes. I wouldn't do it personally, but you can't knock their decision by saying they have older bikes or somehow can't afford new bikes.

I know a guy who has bought 4 Colnagos in the last 2 years. He is a Colnago nut. All rim, and his bikes are beautiful, as are his multiple Porsches. Another guy I ride with has bought 5 bikes in the last 3 years (a TCR, Madone, Factor, Pinarello, Tarmac), all rim. I recall he bought the Tarmac and Madone specifically because they were the last models to be offered in rim. He's also buying up all the rim brake rims he can find and has quite the wheel collection for the 12 or so top of the line bikes in his stable (the man has an entire room of just bikes lined up on display in his house). He makes millions a year and can certainly afford disc but he hates discs for whatever reason. I don't agree with these choices, but to characterize these guys as poor people on old bikes is ridiculous.

For whatever it's worth, these guys aren't racers, and are older gentlemen with significant work/family commitments so they can't afford to get injured. They crawl downhill and have their bikes setup like MTBs with minimal drops for comfort. They enjoy cruising and riding to cafes and taking pictures, so I rarely ride with them. At the speeds they are going (averaging under 30km/h for a 2-3 hour ride), they have no need for disc.

For me personally, I can't wait for the XR6 or whatever it will be called to be released so I can jump on the disc bandwagon :)
So you know rich boomers that hardly even ride their bikes that have specific taste in bikes. How is any of this relevant? One or even two rich boomers don't dictate the global bike market, they'll get outspent massively even in a small city by everyone else.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:27 am
by iheartbianchi
Lina wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:23 am

So you know rich boomers that hardly even ride their bikes that have specific taste in bikes. How is any of this relevant? One or even two rich boomers don't dictate the global bike market, they'll get outspent massively even in a small city by everyone else.
1. Where did I say they hardly ride their bikes? They just don't go hard or fast. Some people don't ride to race or train, but for other reasons whatever that may be.
2. It's relevant because multiple people have now stated that the only people who have rim bikes are those who haven't bought new bikes in years and are on old bikes. My post was in direct response to such a post.
3. I never said rich boomers dictate the global bike market. I merely identified based on my personal experience in my particular city and country, 2 rich guys who are still buying top-end rim bikes. Surely there are many more out there around the world, but yeah, I'm not commenting on whether or not this is a majority of consumers.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:27 am
by Weenie

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Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:51 am
by tomato
iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:03 am
Speaking of Porsche's, I kind of see a parallel in the rim/disc debate to the manual/PDK debate. Anyone who has kept up with Porsche knows that the manual option commands a significant premium among the aficionados.
Anyone who has kept up with Porsche also knows that the PDK transmission outperforms the manual transmission, and it outsells the manual tranmission by a wide margin. So, yes, there is a parallel between manual/PDK and rim/disc.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:33 am
by cveks
Karvalo wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:28 pm
cveks wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:29 pm
Old school guys who are like 5+ years of cycling are almost 90% all rim brakes.
Lol what? No. People whose bikes are more than 5 years old are 90% rim brake. See if you can figure out why...
All my bikes are less than 5 years old but I am 100% rim brake.

I even converted gravel disc bike Genesis CDA 20 to be with cantilever brakes. Simply because frame itself supports both standards.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:49 am
by iheartbianchi
tomato wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:51 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:03 am
Speaking of Porsche's, I kind of see a parallel in the rim/disc debate to the manual/PDK debate. Anyone who has kept up with Porsche knows that the manual option commands a significant premium among the aficionados.
Anyone who has kept up with Porsche also knows that the PDK transmission outperforms the manual transmission, and it outsells the manual tranmission by a wide margin. So, yes, there is a parallel between manual/PDK and rim/disc.
Long-time Rennlister here.

The Cayenne and Macan are Porsche's best sellers by far, and they don't have manual as an option - means nothing.

Super high-end models and the Porsche VIP program caters to the buyers who demand manual. Porsche 918, Carrera GT, GT3 models, GT4, 911R. Interesting that people will pay a significant premium for the much slower manual gearbox. Hypercar manufacturers like Pagani are also making their cars with manual transmission. The hardcore aficionados for whatever reason prefer the slower manual, although the ordinary consumer and racers will of course use dual-clutch.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:22 am
by Karvalo
cveks wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:33 am
Karvalo wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:28 pm
cveks wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:29 pm
Old school guys who are like 5+ years of cycling are almost 90% all rim brakes.
Lol what? No. People whose bikes are more than 5 years old are 90% rim brake. See if you can figure out why...
All my bikes are less than 5 years old but I am 100% rim brake.

I even converted gravel disc bike Genesis CDA 20 to be with cantilever brakes. Simply because frame itself supports both standards.
Sure, but you're not 90% of people, are you? (Are you?? :shock: )

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:27 am
by Maddie
iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:49 am
tomato wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:51 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:03 am
Speaking of Porsche's, I kind of see a parallel in the rim/disc debate to the manual/PDK debate. Anyone who has kept up with Porsche knows that the manual option commands a significant premium among the aficionados.
Anyone who has kept up with Porsche also knows that the PDK transmission outperforms the manual transmission, and it outsells the manual tranmission by a wide margin. So, yes, there is a parallel between manual/PDK and rim/disc.
Long-time Rennlister here.

The Cayenne and Macan are Porsche's best sellers by far, and they don't have manual as an option - means nothing.

Super high-end models and the Porsche VIP program caters to the buyers who demand manual. Porsche 918, Carrera GT, GT3 models, GT4, 911R. Interesting that people will pay a significant premium for the much slower manual gearbox. Hypercar manufacturers like Pagani are also making their cars with manual transmission. The hardcore aficionados for whatever reason prefer the slower manual, although the ordinary consumer and racers will of course use dual-clutch.
So what exactly is the parallel? A VIP program for cycling aficionados who demand rim brakes and are willing to pay a significant premium?

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:07 am
by iggg
cveks wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:29 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:56 pm
Alexbn921 wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:48 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:37 pm
The four kinds of people that buy road disk bikes:
1. The complete noob. A guy/gal that believes all the marketing nonsense.
2. The innocent converter. A guy/gal that had positive experiences with CX/MTB hydraulic disk brakes and thinks they should be better than anything else available. A noob to road cycling but not to cycling in general.
3. The skeptical converter. Doesn't really see the point in disk brakes on a road bikes, but doesn't want older technology that might be hard to sell later on, or be out of fashion.
4. The denialist. Has ridden rim brakes and knows that they are perfectly OK, especially in the dry and especially on better carbon rims and alloy rims. Yet for some reason needs to defend all their purchases on the internet and goes out of their way to attack and denigrate rim technology that is perfectly OK for the application. That somehow unnecessary new tech that has been ported across from MTB with barely a thought and is plagued with issues such as rubbing and warping should be a universal technology because that's what they have. Somehow bikes sales in a certain market or random other reasons are an indication of superiority.
How many miles do you need to do NOT to be a noob?
About a year, longer if they hardly ride.
5. The experienced rider that completely doesn't understand the pro's and con's and picks disks as he's as thick as two short planks.
Exact my point.

Mainly newbies, noobs, victims of cycling industry marketing ride disc bikes.

Old school guys who are like 5+ years of cycling are almost 90% all rim brakes.
Hahahaha! Nope, this is patently false. Here is a good proxy for what experienced rides want and do: sales of Enve wheelsets:
Image

Ouch....90+% of people who ride enough to invest into a very expensive wheelset prefer disks. Those people are experienced enough to understand the value of a good wheelset, and are ready to invest into one.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:08 am
by iheartbianchi
Maddie wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:27 am
So what exactly is the parallel? A VIP program for cycling aficionados who demand rim brakes and are willing to pay a significant premium?
The parallel is that you have the newer PDK clutch which is by all accounts much faster than manual transmission. Old technology vs. newer, better technology. Thus the racing and average consumer will of course prefer the PDK dual-clutch system (although the fastest production cars come in the slower manual...which is ironic, but that's a different story), just like bike racers and average consumers are buying disc. But a niche crowd resists PDK and insists on manual, despite it being outdated, slower technology. In the automotive world, this niche crowd just happens to be the wealthy - not necessarily the case in the cycling world, but nevertheless there is a niche group that for whatever reason reject discs and electric groupsets and prefer rim, despite these being obvious improvements.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:24 am
by iggg
Every time a new technology takes over, there are people who are left behind. There is a well-adopted name for such people: laggards. Here is a famous techonology adoption curve:
Image

There is nothing wrong with being a laggard - there are always valid reasons for not making the transition.
What is wrong is when laggards start creating explanations like "you don't like what I like? you must be a newbie, cause i can't think of any other reason". Well, you didn't try thinking hard enough I guess.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:32 am
by tjvirden
I like this, but there should be one additional category beyond laggards......Luddites!

[They also had valid reasons for their approach]

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:49 am
by Mcdeez
Lewn777 wrote:The four kinds of people that buy road disk bikes:
1. The complete noob. A guy/gal that believes all the marketing nonsense.
2. The innocent converter. A guy/gal that had positive experiences with CX/MTB hydraulic disk brakes and thinks they should be better than anything else available. A noob to road cycling but not to cycling in general.
3. The skeptical converter. Doesn't really see the point in disk brakes on a road bikes, but doesn't want older technology that might be hard to sell later on, or be out of fashion.
4. The denialist. Has ridden rim brakes and knows that they are perfectly OK, especially in the dry and especially on better carbon rims and alloy rims. Yet for some reason needs to defend all their purchases on the internet and goes out of their way to attack and denigrate rim technology that is perfectly OK for the application. That somehow unnecessary new tech that has been ported across from MTB with barely a thought and is plagued with issues such as rubbing and warping should be a universal technology because that's what they have. Somehow bikes sales in a certain market or random other reasons are an indication of superiority.
Thats some really noob assuming

Its like a boomer stuck in the 60s with his big V8 7Liters muscle cars that have 250hp "nothing better than a V8" and todays technology you have 300hp+ 4 cylinders turbo engines with much better power and fuel economy lol

Some people just cant accept the new technology thats is better.

Rim brakes just ok enough. Modulation is kinda shitty.Wet performance is shitty.When you do a climbing ride of 3000+ with lots of up and downs, you wear your beautiful expensive wheels and yes i saw a wheel cracked because of the use.

Since disc brakes its so much better, modulation is awesome,braking is sooo much better, specially on long steep down hills when you have your brakes on for almost a km because theres cars in front of you. Wet conditions/gravel cant even compaire.

Even removing wheel and pu it back is more prectical, every time i removen my wheel from rim brake,when i pit it back the caliper wasn't aligned properly so when you brake you can see the wheels moving the towards left or right.So i had to align it every time,its annoying. With Discs and thru axels, its soo easy,put it back and forget about it.





Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:52 am
by Maddie
I like this @iggg

Another category missing is the "nostalgic". The one who doesn't want to adapt at all and stays with old technology. Which is absolutely fine too.

Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:09 pm
by C36
Leave the forum for like 10 days and 350 messages later it deviated in the “but I like / I have / my experience” I hope we were all better at sticking to the subject (what pro use and why) in high school or exams must have been pretty painful for some Image.

Few of the comments linked to the initial topic
iheartbianchi wrote: Even if a rim bike in a wind tunnel is 5-10% faster, those are marginal gains and doesn't speak to "system gains."
The gain is there on a complete system. Even 10 W+ would not be in the marginal territory, how much do you need to train to increase your FTP by 10W? When the race heat up and they become 15?
iheartbianchi wrote: But a bike will never decide who wins or loses in a 1 hour crit. So it's kind of silly for riders with FTPs below 4.0w/Kg to be beating ourselves over something that will have little to no impact on our lives.
Nonsense, that’s not how physics work… a gain is a gain regardless of your FTP or PMA. Thinking that you need to be 6w/kg to measure the difference is not connected to real word mechanics rules. And if you lose a race by 50cm and you spent 10W more than anyone else (and more at each acceleration) then here are those 50cm. Same applies if you can’t keep the wheels in an attack…
iheartbianchi wrote: I was at my fastest on a CAAD7 aluminum frame on mechanical 7sped dura-ace 20 or so years ago
Typical error mixing physical shape in deferent moments and what different equipment would give you at the same date.

I keep repeating the same. Rim brakes have been measured faster on flats and climbs by some pro teams, independant testing and some brands. Discs brakes haven’t been measured faster descending where we could have expected gains.

Now to avoid the « but I prefer xxx fans », this is relevant for pros, not for each of us, not for marketing or supply chain managers (or LBS). We can debate on sales %, how we reach this point etc. Discs are here to stay, it’s in everybody’s sales interest on the short to medium terms independently of what we / pro like.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:16 pm
by Lewn777
iggg wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:24 am
Every time a new technology takes over, there are people who are left behind. There is a well-adopted name for such people: laggards. Here is a famous techonology adoption curve:
Image

There is nothing wrong with being a laggard - there are always valid reasons for not making the transition.
What is wrong is when laggards start creating explanations like "you don't like what I like? you must be a newbie, cause i can't think of any other reason". Well, you didn't try thinking hard enough I guess.
Oh wow, I'm in the innovator group then, Been riding hydraulic disk on MTB's since the mid naughties.
Graphs we never convince me of a thing. The fact is a road bicycle with 25mm tires has a contact patch about the size of fingernail. Therefore it makes zero difference if you use rim or disk brakes. Quote and anecdotal thing or sales figures you like.

Re: Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:16 pm
by Weenie

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Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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