Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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tjvirden
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by tjvirden

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:01 pm
Lina wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:54 am

Let's throw a bunch of guys that have ridden all their life on rim brakes into a downhill on brand new brakes and see if they're faster with the system they've always used or on something new. You can't really draw are conclusions from that outside of you're faster on equipment you know. It's also essentially the entire argument for why pros prefer rim brakes. They've used them for their entire lives so they're used to them.
Wrong. Maybe 40-50 year old MAMILs will struggle to adapt to new technology, but you're nuts if you think 20 year old world tour riders are incapable of quickly adapating to disc brakes. Even your bang average Cat 3 rider can adapt to disc brakes. But you're telling me kids who can hop in any direction in a track stand on command, bunny hop with no hands, do 180 bunny hops, and generally have elite level bike handling skills (because they are...elite) are somehow uncomfortable or incapble of adapting to disc brakes? Not to mention, they adapt to new technology all the time because it's demanded of them?

We used to throw kids on all kinds of bikes, all sorts of new tech. Different pedals, shoes, different cockpit setups, saddles, positions, experimented a ton. Guess what? The adapation is near instantaneous, they listen and execute with remarkable resilience and speed. The only thing our kids had trouble adapating to was when we put them on fixed gear from road, or vice versa. Their first time on a TT bike is a bit awkward, but they get the hang of it in a day. Really not hard when it's your job.
Lina wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:54 am
Objectively looking the pros outweigh the cons for discs outside of very niche applications like hill climbs. And practically all the cons that people normally list are caused by mistakes in the setup or choosing parts that are bad. It's also why in new bike sales discs dominate.
You don't understand racing. Braking in a race is a VERY niche application. Do you know how much time we spent training our elite cyclists how to brake on downhills? Zero. Actually I don't even know how we would design a braking training session. Go really fast and brake until you lock up and fall over? That reminds me - we did do drills where we intentionally locked up the rear wheel to get our riders comfortable with rear wheel slip, but we would never even consider asking them to lock up their front wheel intentionally. Also, if you're concerned about braking in a downhill in a racing sitaution, you are doing something terribly wrong. Going downhill is all about going down as fast as you can, and the biggest part of this is good line (which means recon recon recon and memorizing each turn before the race), precise weight distribution, micro shifts in center of gravity during a turn, and minimal application of brake possible.
Lina wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:54 am
And the reason why so many of the new bikes are much heavier is not solely caused by discs.
Take off the disc brake rotors and apds and weigh it and multiply by two, and then tell me it's not heavier than a rim brake. Your whole proprietary/integrated cockipit argument is moot b/c that applies to both rim and disc brake bikes. All things being equal, a disc brake bike is heavier, full stop.
You're so far off base.
Thinking about young professionals picking things up quickly......they don't. There's an enormous list of incidents (well, let's call them crashes) in the last, say, four years caused purely by poor handling skills and overconfidence. Far, far too many of the current pro peletons (men and women) do not have the skills to ride a bicycle close to limits of handling. They have spent almost all of their, still limited, careers focused on athletic performance - given the level of competition that's not a surprise, but it has serious consequences.

Let's take two of highest profile new gen male bicycle athletes - Evenepoel and van Aert; both came close to career ENDING injuries, through simple misjudgment of ordinary circumstances. A more recent example is McNulty - he's a danger to himself and everyone nearby.

We could go on with a very big list, but it's a simple fact that a lot pros don't have elite-level handling skills - the evidence is broadcast widely whenever they race.

Lina
Posts: 211
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by Lina

tjvirden wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 am
You're so far off base.
Thinking about young professionals picking things up quickly......they don't. There's an enormous list of incidents (well, let's call them crashes) in the last, say, four years caused purely by poor handling skills and overconfidence. Far, far too many of the current pro peletons (men and women) do not have the skills to ride a bicycle close to limits of handling. They have spent almost all of their, still limited, careers focused on athletic performance - given the level of competition that's not a surprise, but it has serious consequences.

Let's take two of highest profile new gen male bicycle athletes - Evenepoel and van Aert; both came close to career ENDING injuries, through simple misjudgment of ordinary circumstances. A more recent example is McNulty - he's a danger to himself and everyone nearby.

We could go on with a very big list, but it's a simple fact that a lot pros don't have elite-level handling skills - the evidence is broadcast widely whenever they race.
It's a bit unfair to put van Aert into the same camp as Remco when it comes to bike handling. Yes he made a mistake but that would've just been a crash no one would even remember now without the way those barriers were set up. And he's actually a good bike handler. Remco on the other hand really needs to learn how to both descend and ride on less than perfect surfaces or his career won't ever become anything.

But you're right that there are plenty of pro racers whose descending, and general bike handling, look absolutely awful. Yet whenever someone tries to criticise them for it they're told by others that they're pros and for that reason alone much better at everything bike related than anyone writing on a weight weenie forum. It's the same with Froomey and disc brakes. No one can dispute that the man can ride a bike. But he's not an authority when it comes to disc brakes. This forum has people that have orders of magnitude more experience with disc brakes than he has. Yet their comments are dismissed completely while citing Froomey as an authority in the subject just because it fits their narrative and he's a pro.

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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

tjvirden wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 am

You're so far off base.
Thinking about young professionals picking things up quickly......they don't. There's an enormous list of incidents (well, let's call them crashes) in the last, say, four years caused purely by poor handling skills and overconfidence. Far, far too many of the current pro peletons (men and women) do not have the skills to ride a bicycle close to limits of handling. They have spent almost all of their, still limited, careers focused on athletic performance - given the level of competition that's not a surprise, but it has serious consequences.

Let's take two of highest profile new gen male bicycle athletes - Evenepoel and van Aert; both came close to career ENDING injuries, through simple misjudgment of ordinary circumstances. A more recent example is McNulty - he's a danger to himself and everyone nearby.
Are you seriously going to take racing incidents as examples of young pros having poor handling skills? They are riding at the limit, in extreme conditions, in extreme aero setups with inherently poor visibility, sat behind a group of riders with zero visiblity beyond the rider in front, with numerous riders in extreme close proximity and overlapping wheels, after hours on the bike where it's easy to lose concentration for a second that can lead to a crash. It's a testament to their skill they don't crash more often.

Just watch some of the onboard footage published by Velon. The striking thing is not just how fast they are able to go, but how elite their bike handling skills are.

If you take any ordinary rider, they would find a way to crash during the opening parade of a flat stage. Go watch any Cat 4-5 races in any country. They somehow manage to crash going 30-40km/h on a pancake flat course.

Calling out Evenepoel for his bike handling is absurd. It's like saying someone who plays for Tottenham is a rubbish football player because Messi is so much better. The bare minimum bar for entry into the World Tour is incredibly high, and anyone on the World Tour will have better bike handling skills than 99.999% of the cycling population.
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usr
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by usr

tjvirden wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 am
Thinking about young professionals picking things up quickly......they don't. There's an enormous list of incidents (well, let's call them crashes) in the last, say, four years caused purely by poor handling skills and overconfidence. Far, far too many of the current pro peletons (men and women) do not have the skills to ride a bicycle close to limits of handling. They have spent almost all of their, still limited, careers focused on athletic performance - given the level of competition that's not a surprise, but it has serious consequences.
And telling them that the secret to a fast descend lies in braking harder later won't make it better. Because that was the topic?

Lina
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by Lina

iheartbianchi wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:57 am
tjvirden wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 am

You're so far off base.
Thinking about young professionals picking things up quickly......they don't. There's an enormous list of incidents (well, let's call them crashes) in the last, say, four years caused purely by poor handling skills and overconfidence. Far, far too many of the current pro peletons (men and women) do not have the skills to ride a bicycle close to limits of handling. They have spent almost all of their, still limited, careers focused on athletic performance - given the level of competition that's not a surprise, but it has serious consequences.

Let's take two of highest profile new gen male bicycle athletes - Evenepoel and van Aert; both came close to career ENDING injuries, through simple misjudgment of ordinary circumstances. A more recent example is McNulty - he's a danger to himself and everyone nearby.
Are you seriously going to take racing incidents as examples of young pros having poor handling skills? They are riding at the limit, in extreme conditions, in extreme aero setups with inherently poor visibility, sat behind a group of riders with zero visiblity beyond the rider in front, with numerous riders in extreme close proximity and overlapping wheels, after hours on the bike where it's easy to lose concentration for a second that can lead to a crash. It's a testament to their skill they don't crash more often.

Just watch some of the onboard footage published by Velon. The striking thing is not just how fast they are able to go, but how elite their bike handling skills are.

If you take any ordinary rider, they would find a way to crash during the opening parade of a flat stage. Go watch any Cat 4-5 races in any country. They somehow manage to crash going 30-40km/h on a pancake flat course.

Calling out Evenepoel for his bike handling is absurd. It's like saying someone who plays for Tottenham is a rubbish football player because Messi is so much better. The bare minimum bar for entry into the World Tour is incredibly high, and anyone on the World Tour will have better bike handling skills than 99.999% of the cycling population.
Pro riders don't manage to crash on pancake flat parts?

And no, just because you're riding in the pro peloton doesn't magically make you a good at descending. I can guarantee that I would drop pros like Zakarin or Reichenbach on any downhill, any time, any weather. And Remco definitely is very bad at bike handling. He's had an almost career ending injury and lost plenty of time on a few gravel sectors in the Giro solely because he couldn't keep up with others in a downhill and not having the bike handling skills to ride on gravel.

All the guys are certainly very good at producing power on the bike. And I'd have no chances to do anything of note in a pro race, even if I've got pretty good power numbers for an amateur. But just being in the pro peloton doesn't mean you're good at handling your bike. Descending is one of the places where your random cat 3 guy can keep up with the pros and even drop the pros that aren't good at it.

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by TobinHatesYou

I recently descended behind a conti level rider and we both did the segment at 4W total (more or less coasted the entire time.) We finished 12 seconds ahead on a 2.5min segment compared to the next fastest guy on a 70+ person group ride, who had to sprint out of a corner, thus doing 30W total.

Neither of us were pushing the limits obviously…purely coasting, yet we put a huge gap on the next guy. Even conti level riders are significantly more skilled descenders than virtually all amateurs.

However that’s not saying much because that bar is so low. It’s funny how the best amateur descenders in practice aren’t the ones who climb the most…they’re usually the ones who ride in large, fast hammerfest group rides.

And none of this has to do with rim vs disc. The best reasons to choose disc over rim for me are consolidation, performance in weather/microclimates, wear in weather/microclimates, the fact that I ride carbon clinchers, etc. Braking power / late braking is far down the list, though the modulation related to such does boost one’s confidence when slightly overcooking a corner entry.

tjvirden
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by tjvirden

Lina wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:27 am
It's a bit unfair to put van Aert into the same camp as Remco when it comes to bike handling. Yes he made a mistake but that would've just been a crash no one would even remember now without the way those barriers were set up. And he's actually a good bike handler. Remco on the other hand really needs to learn how to both descend and ride on less than perfect surfaces or his career won't ever become anything.

But you're right that there are plenty of pro racers whose descending, and general bike handling, look absolutely awful. Yet whenever someone tries to criticise them for it they're told by others that they're pros and for that reason alone much better at everything bike related than anyone writing on a weight weenie forum. It's the same with Froomey and disc brakes. No one can dispute that the man can ride a bike. But he's not an authority when it comes to disc brakes. This forum has people that have orders of magnitude more experience with disc brakes than he has. Yet their comments are dismissed completely while citing Froomey as an authority in the subject just because it fits their narrative and he's a pro.
Van Aert doesn't yet have much experience on the road; he is extradorinarily talented in so many ways; riding cross in the way he has needs superlative skill.....but road/cross = apples/oranges. I hope he is able to develop his talent fully on the road - no reason why not - and that includes the enormous number of hours needed, riding in all conditions; that's actually much harder for a pro to achieve than for some amateurs. As an example, there's no way a pro is allowed to ride in winter (snow/ice) on pavement; however, that experience provides so much in terms of learning what happens close to, at, and over the limit of traction - traction is by far the greatest aspect of handling, because of its range, and also the hardest factor to assess accurately. As a pro, if they did it as a youngster then that's a big advantage over people who arrive late to cycling. I believe that is shown very clearly in current professional racing.

Evenepoel is right at the beginning of, with dedication and some good fortune, a long career - he has already been pushed into doing too much too soon, but it seems his manager has recognised that and they're trying to dial back expectations. It's so clear that he is very uncomfortable in some situations (Strade Biache, Tour....etc), but with work he can mitigate that. However, riding very close to the limit is obviously not his forte - in the same way that nobody on WW has his physiological capabilities, a lot of people on WW will always be more comfortable going downhill; it's horses for courses.
usr wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:56 am
And telling them that the secret to a fast descend lies in braking harder later won't make it better. Because that was the topic?
I think the topic started as an observation of brake choice with some thoughts as to why (wheel changes). This being WW, it has diverged....... :)
----------
As for ordinary riders crashing during the opening parade of flat stages, yes they do manage it. More surprisingly it's a staple of the current pro peletons.......

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Ordinary Cat 4-5 riders manage to crash in 10-20 person peletons going in a straight line on a wide circuit in a 30 minute race. The crashes on flat stages for World Tour involve 100 riders in very tight proximity at much higher speeds on a 4-5 hour day of racing, while riders are moving up or back with food/drinks, eating, pissing, fighting for position, with motos and cars zipping about, crazy spectators, etc. Completely incomparable.

Typical Cat 5 race:

https://youtu.be/FkpIHlqLQRw

https://youtu.be/5Mtc_e5Ek-M

World Tour (it's a testament to their bike handling that they don't crash more):

https://youtu.be/1XEgLDUBMxA

https://youtu.be/1A7TsNUAabA

Yes, World Tour pros crash all the time. But completely understandable given the circumstances.
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by tomato

iheartbianchi wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:09 am
tomato wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:56 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:28 am
We don't do downhill braking drills. We do downhill training, but there the focus is all about reading corners, picking the right line and modulating speed, and shifting your body weight.
How do you modulate speed on a descent?
A combination of position, line, pedaling and braking? Stuff that happens holistically and not at a static designated "braking zone."

Your question implies that modulation of speed only happens when you need to go slower., ie not a racing mentality. The modulation of speed also works to figure how to go faster.
You need to read more and write less.
tomato wrote:My former coach had us do descending/braking drills, since the key to a fast technical descent is picking the right line and braking at the right time.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

You should take your own advice. You said the key to descending is right line and braking. I said descending is a holistic skill based on several variables which you conveniently ignore.

A 14 year old girl who is 158cm and weighs 55kg is going to descend much differently than a 19 year old boy weighing 65kg and 185cm tall, and will require a much different skillset in figuring out how to pick an appropriate line. This is why downhill drills as a team are silly, because these are individual skills that depend on the individual. You can't design a "one size fits all" drill and you can't take time out of team practice to go over individual downhill lessons for 20 odd athletes. You come to the program with your downhill skills already in place. If youre lacking you will figure it out on the team rides and the dozens of descents you do each week. You teach them the different positions on the bike, get them to follow faster descenders, gradually get confortable going a bit faster, and then it's more or less sink or swim.
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by jasjas

Lina wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:17 am
And no, just because you're riding in the pro peloton doesn't magically make you a good at descending. I can guarantee that I would drop pros like Zakarin or Reichenbach on any downhill, any time, any weather. And Remco definitely is very bad at bike handling. He's had an almost career ending injury and lost plenty of time on a few gravel sectors in the Giro solely because he couldn't keep up with others in a downhill and not having the bike handling skills to ride on gravel.

All the guys are certainly very good at producing power on the bike. And I'd have no chances to do anything of note in a pro race, even if I've got pretty good power numbers for an amateur. But just being in the pro peloton doesn't mean you're good at handling your bike. Descending is one of the places where your random cat 3 guy can keep up with the pros and even drop the pros that aren't good at it.
i seem to remember Zakarin lost maybe 20sec over a 12k descent on that TDF stage to guys like JA... so what your saying is you can keep up with the world best descenders?

During stage 11 of the Giro Remco couldn't keep up with the very best but he still managed to stay ahead of plenty of other v good pro's, finishing 27th, just 10sec down Nibali.

I really don't know what your beef with Remco is, he is 21yo and suffered a terrible crash, i prefer to listen to Sean Kelly who was far more understanding of Remco than you apear to be, though doubtless you d have beaten Kelly too back in the day?

tjvirden
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by tjvirden

I'll let Lina speak for himself (yes, I'm making an assumption of gender.....), but twas I that introduced Evenepoel to this thread; not in a derogatory way - simply as an example of an extraordinarily talented rider whose inexperience in some aspects of bicycle riding has lead him into some serious difficulty. The crash we all saw was extremely unpleasant - very close to seriously life-changing or life-ending - but simply due to inexperience on his part. Regardless of whether anybody likes the situation or not, many of the young pro riders, both men and women, are very seriously underprepared for the type of riding they're expected to do - the consequences are obvious; we see them get badly hurt with everything that goes afterward. It's not at all amusing and it comes about because they have the athleticism to ride as professionals, but they don't have the experience to do so in reasonable safety. Nobody prepares them for it; it doesn't have to be this way, but too often riding a bike is regarded as something so straightforward that a child can do it........but, in reality, riding a bike close to the limit of what is possible is anything but straightforward and takes a long time to learn well.

Different people have different abilities and perhaps Lina really is one of those non-pros who has the talents needed to ride a technical descent close to the maximum. Some pros have it, some don't - it has nothing to do with W/Kg or VO2 max etc......

As for brakes, well the only real problem is when there are lots of different options. If everyone has the same, then braking is adequate and wheel changes are easy (well, easier).

usr
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by usr

tjvirden wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:26 pm
I'll let Lina speak for himself (yes, I'm making an assumption of gender.....), but twas I that introduced Evenepoel to this thread; not in a derogatory way - simply as an example of an extraordinarily talented rider whose inexperience in some aspects of bicycle riding has lead him into some serious difficulty. The crash we all saw was extremely unpleasant - very close to seriously life-changing or life-ending - but simply due to inexperience on his part. Regardless of whether anybody likes the situation or not, many of the young pro riders, both men and women, are very seriously underprepared for the type of riding they're expected to do - the consequences are obvious; we see them get badly hurt with everything that goes afterward.
That reads a bit as if you were implying that earlier generations were better descenders at that point in their career, which I assume wasn't your intention. But it got me wondering, how have pro peloton downhill speeds developed over time? There's plenty of talk about historical climb times, but little about what follows after the climb. Could it be that we see the outcome of a recently escalated arms race in risk taking? (or an arms race in downhill skill, that occasionally flips into one in risk taking)? Riders have crashed and even died before, but last year felt different.

Lina
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by Lina

usr wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:32 am
tjvirden wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:26 pm
I'll let Lina speak for himself (yes, I'm making an assumption of gender.....), but twas I that introduced Evenepoel to this thread; not in a derogatory way - simply as an example of an extraordinarily talented rider whose inexperience in some aspects of bicycle riding has lead him into some serious difficulty. The crash we all saw was extremely unpleasant - very close to seriously life-changing or life-ending - but simply due to inexperience on his part. Regardless of whether anybody likes the situation or not, many of the young pro riders, both men and women, are very seriously underprepared for the type of riding they're expected to do - the consequences are obvious; we see them get badly hurt with everything that goes afterward.
That reads a bit as if you were implying that earlier generations were better descenders at that point in their career, which I assume wasn't your intention. But it got me wondering, how have pro peloton downhill speeds developed over time? There's plenty of talk about historical climb times, but little about what follows after the climb. Could it be that we see the outcome of a recently escalated arms race in risk taking? (or an arms race in downhill skill, that occasionally flips into one in risk taking)? Riders have crashed and even died before, but last year felt different.
They probably were. In recent years trainers have become a massive way of training and juniors are moving to pros younger than before. Trainers especially create riders that have a massive engine but not the bike handling skills you'd expect from one.

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by cveks

rollinslow wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:00 am
No sponsors, and rim brakes just went gold and silver at the olympics mens road race. There is no way rim brakes are going anywhere when thats what the best riders in the world prefer to win.

Yep. Tadej Pogacar rides Colnago V3RS with direct mount rim brakes too.

Rim brake bikes are also more aero.

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