Please don’t make this a rim vs disc bloodfest. Stage 17 won with rim brake

[tomato]

His main business however has been auto chemicals. Everything from cheap alternatives to WD40, to highly specialty paints, coatings and heat-resistant engine lubricants. Can you guess which makes him more money? Let me give you a hint - he doesn't make the WD40 knock-off anymore.

This is just like your iPhone X vs. iPhone 8 example. Yes, sometimes a higher priced item does have a higher profit. In fact, it happens a lot, but it is not a universal truth.

[tomato]

A higher price does not necessarily mean higher profit.

Ooh but it does.

Absolutely, 100% false. Higher price does not guarantee higher profit. In fact, sometimes the highest priced item offered by a manufacturer is sold at a loss. (e.g. Chevrolet Corvette, early days)

So why they dont sell disc groupsets for less price than rim brake counter parts?

The most likely reason is that disc brakes cost more to manufacture than rim brakes. It is possible, however, that the cost is the same and manufacturers simply charge more for disc brakes because there is more demand for disc brakes. In this case, disc brakes would be more profitable. But, you can't conclude that the latter case is the relevant case based solely on the fact that disc brakes sell for more.

[cveks]

Ooh but it does.

Absolutely, 100% false. Higher price does not guarantee higher profit. In fact, sometimes the highest priced item offered by a manufacturer is sold at a loss. (e.g. Chevrolet Corvette, early days)

So why they dont sell disc groupsets for less price than rim brake counter parts?

The most likely reason is that disc brakes cost more to manufacture than rim brakes. It is possible, however, that the cost is the same and manufacturers simply charge more for disc brakes because there is more demand for disc brakes. In this case, disc brakes would be more profitable. But, you can't conclude that the latter case is the relevant case based solely on the fact that disc brakes sell for more.

That scam story is that disc brake bikes have superior braking vs rim brake bikes.

But that is totally unproven on amateur and pro level especially. I dont remember ever that rim brake guys in pro peloton like Pogacar or Carapaz were dropped on descents because they have rim brakes? So why would we ?

You did not answer on weight difference between road and disc brake groupset of same manufacturer?


Why I would pay more to get 500 grams heavier groupset?

I thought that better bike is that , which is cheaper and lighter . Not opposite.

You try to sell us scam to pay at least 7000+ euros for bike which weights less than 7.5 kgs with disc brakes while I can buy rim brake bike of same weight for 5000 less. Like Rose X Light with Shimano 105 which weights 7 kgs and costs 2400 euros.


In same time Cannondale SUPERSIX EVO Hi-Mod DISC with Ultegra weights 7.6 kgs and costs 6000+ more. So I need to pay 6000 euros extra to get 600 grams heavier bike ? No point especially for guys who spent lot of time in mountains climbing - like me.

First lighter bike they sell is Scott Addict RC Ultimate and it weights 6.9 kgs but costs 12.000 euros almost 10.000 euros more? To save 100 grams I need to add 10.000 euros extra which is like price of decent new car?

No way.... So discs suck big time if you ask me . Especially when we compare what we get for price we pay for.

[iheartbianchi]

That scam story is that disc brake bikes have superior braking vs rim brake bikes.

But that is totally unproven on amateur and pro level especially. I dont remember ever that rim brake guys in pro peloton like Pogacar or Carapaz were dropped on descents because they have rim brakes? So why would we ?

Dude, you can't credibly argue that disc brakes are not more effective at braking than rim brakes (at least in straight line testing). The question is, how much is this better braking ability worth? And what the pros do is completely irrelevant to us because (as I have been arguing for days now on this thread) racing downhill in the World Tour is a completely different activity, with entirely different skillsets and demands, than a recreational rider who is casually descending from a mountain in a Grand Fondo or a group ride.

Why I would pay more to get 500 grams heavier groupset?

Not that I would pay more, but the argument would be (1) you get a more effective braking system (which is not disputable, although it comes at a cost which is also not disputable) and (2) 500 grams means little in practice to an amateur. Of course the counter-argument is that the better braking system also means little practice to an amateur, there are potential maintenance hassles, and also costs more, so you need to individually weigh the pros vs. cons. I guess people are upset that the choice is being taken away from them, which is fair.

Likewise, why would you pay more for a heavier electronic groupset? Or pay more for heavier 12spd groupsets? Or pay more for heavier 12-34T cassettes? It's all about what equipment you need for the type of riding you have. Weight isn't all that matters.

The reason these debates never end is because the pro-disc crew make ridiculous arguments (you NEED this better braking system, rim brakes are JUST AS BAD in terms of maintenance), and the pro-rim crew make equally ridiculous counterarguments (rim are JUST AS EFFECTIVE, or discs are HEAVY AND USELESS). And both sides make irrelevant arguments about what the pros use and therefore this informs what average consumers should use.

[MoPho]

[

That is 455 grams weight difference between Tiagra rim brake and Ultegra rim brake versions. Almost same if not more as between Ultegra rim brake and disc brake versions.

Thats why I never ride disc brakes on road bike( I do on MTB beacause they are so cheap there).

You wont sell me Tiagra weight groupset for much higher price. I am not that stupid.

Yeah, best to stay away from disc, that 455g is really going to ruin your strava cred

[MoPho]

First, direct mount dual-pivot rim brakes require little maintenance in terms of centering. Unless you have it setup with absolutely minimal clearance, then yes, that will be sensitive to wheel rub but that's not really a standard case.

As I said, "my last rim brake bike", that was nearly 6 years ago now. I have ridden direct mount dual pivot, but not owned, so can't speak to the maintanence of it. Not many people were buying them (or any rim brake really) at the shop either. And direct mount dual pivot is not really used by a lot of people given that most are buying disc these days and it requires a whole new frame, etc., which is one of the complaints people try and make against disc, right?

For a single-pivot rim brake, sure, they can get off centered. But this is only an issue if you also have absolutely minimal clearance. You only need a screw driver to set the limit screws on each individual brake pad to widen the gap. Or physically re-center the single-pivot caliper with your hands. Really not a big deal at all.

Yes, could reset with my hand, but then it would move back, hence why I had to carry the tool to tighten it up. A month or so later, I was doing it again. And yes, it was not a big deal, just an annoyance. Still got out of the saddle brake rub regardless of the caliper position (and it happened on other bikes and I've known many with the same issue). Sure I could open the caliper, but then the braking is compromised. Again, point being, rim brakes have many of the same issues thrown at disc brakes, rubbing, noise, etc..
Centering disc brakes is not a big deal either.

If your cables are wearing out several times a year, you have to admit there is something really wrong with your setup. You should be able to easily got 10,000km or more on a cable with no issue.

I said it was bad design that caused them to fail, so if the person I was replying to can use an annecdotal story about integrated brake hoses which is also "bad design" as an argument against disc, I can use this as evidence of rim brakes not being infallible.
And you can get 10k km without bleeding disc brakes too. In fact, I had nearly 20k miles on my TCR and have only bled the brakes once and it wasn't out of necessity.

But because people are fighting over marginal, exaggerated unrealistic situations (like this supposed hassle of adjusting rim brakes), people get emotional. Just stop with the unrealistic or marginal arguments against rim brakes just to make your point.

Just stop with the unrealistic or marginal arguments against disc brakes just to make your point.

You are ignoring the FACT that it is the anti-dixxers that are the ones who keep starting threads whining about disc brakes ad nauseam, making the same old tired arguments while insulting those of us that purchased and like disc. And no one is telling rim brake users they NEED disc brakes, we are defending against the nonsense, period.

Nobody should be denying that disc brakes are more of a hassle to maintain than rim brakes. Or that disc brakes require more time and money to maintain over time (maybe not materially so, but it's still true).

In my five years and several bikes experience with disc, the "hassle" is greatly exaggerated. Other than perhaps cleaning them with a q-tip more often, there really is not much more time invested and the only real extra cost so far has been for brake pads, which I have to replace twice a year instead of the once a year or so with my rim brakes.

Nobody should be denying that disc brakes offer better performance than rim brakes.

The only debate is, is the combination of (i) the relatively minor hassles of a disc brake, (ii) the slightly higher price and (ii) the somewhat significant weight gain (which let's be honest, means nothing to an average rider), a deal breaker? Are the marginal benefits of disc brakes in specialty situations worth it for you as a rider?

Similar to the debate between mechanical vs. electronic groupsets. And 11spd vs 12spd. All really marginal differences.

Agreed.


And to clarify, again, I am not saying rim brakes are just as bad in terms of maintenance, I am pointing out that rim brakes are not perfect and that folks are exaggerating the amount of maintenance disc brakes require

[Lina]

Again, point being, rim brakes have many of the same issues thrown at disc brakes, rubbing, noise, etc..

In all of this discussion this is the funniest thing to me. A lot of the issues that get brought up as disc brake issues are things that were constantly discussed 5 years ago with rim brakes and everyone has suddenly forgot those issues exist with rim brakes. Noise and rubbing were major points of discussion, especially with carbon wheels. Add the trend of integrated and below BB rim brakes on aero bikes and you had people fuming about the issues with them. Now that's all been forgotten and we get told how rim brakes are more aero because people suddenly want more integrated and below the BB rim brakes???

[cveks]

That scam story is that disc brake bikes have superior braking vs rim brake bikes.

But that is totally unproven on amateur and pro level especially. I dont remember ever that rim brake guys in pro peloton like Pogacar or Carapaz were dropped on descents because they have rim brakes? So why would we ?

Dude, you can't credibly argue that disc brakes are not more effective at braking than rim brakes (at least in straight line testing). The question is, how much is this better braking ability worth? And what the pros do is completely irrelevant to us because (as I have been arguing for days now on this thread) racing downhill in the World Tour is a completely different activity, with entirely different skillsets and demands, than a recreational rider who is casually descending from a mountain in a Grand Fondo or a group ride.

Why I would pay more to get 500 grams heavier groupset?

Not that I would pay more, but the argument would be (1) you get a more effective braking system (which is not disputable, although it comes at a cost which is also not disputable) and (2) 500 grams means little in practice to an amateur. Of course the counter-argument is that the better braking system also means little practice to an amateur, there are potential maintenance hassles, and also costs more, so you need to individually weigh the pros vs. cons. I guess people are upset that the choice is being taken away from them, which is fair.

Likewise, why would you pay more for a heavier electronic groupset? Or pay more for heavier 12spd groupsets? Or pay more for heavier 12-34T cassettes? It's all about what equipment you need for the type of riding you have. Weight isn't all that matters.

The reason these debates never end is because the pro-disc crew make ridiculous arguments (you NEED this better braking system, rim brakes are JUST AS BAD in terms of maintenance), and the pro-rim crew make equally ridiculous counterarguments (rim are JUST AS EFFECTIVE, or discs are HEAVY AND USELESS). And both sides make irrelevant arguments about what the pros use and therefore this informs what average consumers should use.

I ride mostly mountain climbs . Average day for me is climbing 20 kms with 1-2000 m elevation . Few times when I had bad day I thought I would benefit more with 11-34T cassette on the back than 11-32T but I never had doubt that I need disc brakes to climb or descent faster. I buy that gives me simplicity, easier servicing , better reliability and better performance per cost ratio. And that are bikes with rim brake groupsets.

Every gram counts on 6% gradient climbs 30 kms long . Every gram. So why I would carry 500 grams extra weight uphill for which I need to pay few thousand euros more to get disc brake bike which weights less than 8 kilos? No point for me. No point for Pogacar, Carapaz....

Every experienced rider who is not brainwashed by biking industry marketing media will make same decision as they did. Choose rim brake.

[cveks]

[

That is 455 grams weight difference between Tiagra rim brake and Ultegra rim brake versions. Almost same if not more as between Ultegra rim brake and disc brake versions.

Thats why I never ride disc brakes on road bike( I do on MTB beacause they are so cheap there).

You wont sell me Tiagra weight groupset for much higher price. I am not that stupid.

Yeah, best to stay away from disc, that 455g is really going to ruin your strava cred

Yeah my friend - it costs much more , and gives less ...

I would even choose Tiagra rim brake before Ultegra disc because it has more features. It gives you tripple chainring option to have even easier gears if needed on hard mountain climbs . That third chainring gives me option to ride on high cadence with easier gears on 10-20% gradient climbs which I dont have posibility with Ultegra disc. I am tall guy and I prefer to ride uphill like Chris Froom does. High Cadence as much as possible - with sweet spot somewhere between 95 and 100 rpm.

[wheelsONfire]

Just copied this from another thread!


Some tips for Shimano road brakes from the proffesional peleton:

1: 140 front and back. The 160 warps a lot under heat from descending, 140 is less affected. XTR warps less than Dura-Ace. More sturdy construction.

2: Discs that warp under heat and heavy braking is normal, they always warp inwards to the hub. It will straighten out when cooling down again, this can happen quite fast.

3: Brakes that squeel are not normal, squeeling is a indication that there is something wrong.

4: Make sure your flatmounts of your frame are straight. 80% of frames coming out of factory are not perfectly straight. What happens is that the caliper is at a slight angle. Every time you brake if forces the disc in a unnatural angle and this makes noise. Your pads will wear out crooked. When the caliper is not straight and you do some heavy braking the disc can warp inward and actually start dragging on the alumunium of the caliper, instead of dragging on the pad where it should drag. This occurence has a very distinctive metal on metal noise.

5: Use a soft brake pad. Shimano K03S for example, this one makes less noise. Braking feels a bit softer. It's a cheaper version pad. A lot of Pro Teams use it.

5: Degrease your new pads and discs with 96% alcochol BEFORE wearing them in.

6: Always wear in your pads AND dics. On a machine, or on a stretch of downhill road. Replicate normal braking. 10 sec on, 5 sec off, 10 sec on, 5 sec off etc. The point is to have the pad material on both pad and disc. This creates a much more effiecent braking surface with less heat being generated.

7: Never ever touch your pads and disc with your hands. One greasy finger is enough to cause problems.

8: Never ever clean your pads and discs with a sponge, towel, cloth etc. This one can also be greasy, although it sometimes can't be seen by the naked eye. Just soap and rinse off with water is enough. A disc doesn't want to be spotless clean. Spottles clean = smooth = more heat being generated.

9: Never use degreaser on pads and discs. You're also washing off the pad material on the disc. This is the stuff that needs to stay on for optimal braking. Soap is no problem but can leave a thin film on the pads and disc, this brakes of easily after 1 or 2 times. It's no problem.

10: Replace pads more often! When they start making noise there's probaly some oil or grease on them.

11: Organic pad material can be burned easliy from heavy braking, the pads wil glaze. Replace.

12: Disc can not burn, but the defenitely can warp and be permanelty warped from heavy braking. If it's impossible to straighen again. Replace.

13: When you replace a disc, always replace the pads too.

14: For a quick fix, if you dont have new pads in house you can always try to sand off the 'contaminated' top layer of the brake pad. This sometimes works if it's not too bad.

15: Never do a full bleed right away when you're having problems with your Shimano brakes. The problem is most likely air, which causes spungy feeling brakes. Air bubbles can be removed from the top. New oil also has micro bubbles of air inside.

16: Check your oil reguarly with the bleeding pot on top of the shifter. Micro air bubbles inside the oil, caliper or shifter can clog up to 1 big air bubble. Tap the brakes and tilt the bike forward and backwards. A air bubble can be caught behind the oil chambers inside the shifter. If done correctly all air bubbles should come out at the top.

17: If the oil at the top coming out is black colored your oil is contaminated with water. Water can come in through all linkages and pistons. Water compresses, oil does not. So the water causes spungy brakes or pistons not coming back properly. Water inside the hose can also evaporate under heavy braking, which creates sudden new air bubbles. Which can be quite dangerous.

18: Dirty pistons eventually will clog up and they will stop working or returning inside the caliper. The best way to clean a piston is by lubracting it in it's own mineral oil. You can do this by pushing back the pistons inside the caliper with a tool and brake a few times again, repeat until clean.

Hope this helps you guys out a bit.

[cveks]

How much average cyclists know difference between rim and disc brakes? Not more than few percent. They buy disc brake bikes because they dont have other options now. Because cycling industry marketing media want them to do that.

Not because disc brakes are better , more reliable or whatever.

Simply people buy bike mostly because they like how that bike looks , not even 10% people go on test ride with bike they plan to buy. I have friend who run bike store. So this whole idea is completely wrong.

And all of them bike stores, bike brands and country they live want to rob them and extract as much money from them as possible.

That is capitalism. But capitalism is not beeing stupid and buy some expensive thing because industry want your money. Capitalism is also , read, learn and decide what is best for yourself basing on that facts.

Thats what exactly what Pogacar, Carapaz and Froome did. And someone here wants to convince me that they know better than them? Nope. Not today guys.

What is better for Pogacar is especially better for every average weekend warrior who produce much lower wattage than top dogs in pro peloton. Lower the wattage you produce, bigger the effect of extra weight on your bike on climbs.

[Lina]

What is better for Pogacar is especially better for every average weekend warrior who produce much lower wattage than top dogs in pro peloton. Lower the wattage you produce, bigger the effect of extra weight on your bike on climbs.

Wrong. Pogacar is much lighter than your average weekend warrior. So the weight difference as a percentage of full system weight is bigger on a light rider like Pog than it is on an average weekend warrior.

[iheartbianchi]

Not because disc brakes are better , more reliable or whatever.

Thats what exactly what Pogacar, Carapaz and Froome did. And someone here wants to convince me that they know better than them? Nope. Not today guys.

What is better for Pogacar is especially better for every average weekend warrior who produce much lower wattage than top dogs in pro peloton. Lower the wattage you produce, bigger the effect of extra weight on your bike on climbs.

They are better for braking though...it's just that they come with certain downsides. Like a Ferrari is 100% a better car than a Fiat, but it's expensive and even more expensive to maintain and run, and probably too much car for all of us, at least for the type of driving we do.

I don't agree with your first statement about Pogacar Carapaz or Froome. The average stem length of the pro peleton is bteween 110-130mm. Should we all rock 110-130mm stems completely slammed? Should we ride our bikes in rain snow and on cobbles and gravel because the pros do it? The pros wreck their bikes with scary frequency and have a van full of entire groupsets to replace any part whenever they need. Totally different worlds.

You kind of have a point on the low wattage argument, but you also kind of killed off your argument. Yes, weight is critical for lower wattage amateurs. Hugely important in fact. That's why 500g means absolutely nothing compared to the 10-20kg extra a lot of us are carrying around (from race weight). And before you say "why pay Ultegra price for Tiagra," you're not. You're paying more for a heavier piece of equipment that actually happens to be better functionally.

[MikeD]

Not because disc brakes are better , more reliable or whatever.

Thats what exactly what Pogacar, Carapaz and Froome did. And someone here wants to convince me that they know better than them? Nope. Not today guys.

What is better for Pogacar is especially better for every average weekend warrior who produce much lower wattage than top dogs in pro peloton. Lower the wattage you produce, bigger the effect of extra weight on your bike on climbs.

They are better for braking though...it's just that they come with certain downsides. Like a Ferrari is 100% a better car than a Fiat, but it's expensive and even more expensive to maintain and run, and probably too much car for all of us, at least for the type of driving we do.

I disagree that disc brakes brake better. In the rain, yes. But, I experienced pad fade with disc brakes and complete loss of braking on my rear brake due to a fluid leak at a piston seal. The brake was working fine until it didn't (lever went to the bar). This is on my mountain bike. Never had loss of braking action with rim brakes. Maybe I'm unlucky with disc brakes.

[warthog101]

Braking, particularly when comparing disc to rim caliper, is not particularly decisive with respect to the outcome any road bicycle race.


This man does require good brakes and is able to use them harder and later than anyone else.

https://youtu.be/RXQcX7xzdxY

Far more interesting than this thread imo anyway