DI2 9150 does not shift correctly on the smallest 3 sprockets with large front chainring

[pdlpsher1]

Hi Fred,

I want to help you but you must stop buying parts. A new hanger won’t necessarily solve the problem. Every new hanger mated to a brand new frame will need to have the hanger aligned. That’s because the hanger alignment needs to be very precise and both the bike frame and the hanger cannot be manufactured to be precisely aligned when mated together. What you need to buy is an alignment tool which also doubles as a tool to straighten the hanger if it’s bent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fred12]

Hi Fred,

I want to help you but you must stop buying parts. A new hanger won’t necessarily solve the problem. Every new hanger mated to a brand new frame will need to have the hanger aligned. That’s because the hanger alignment needs to be very precise and both the bike frame and the hanger cannot be manufactured to be precisely aligned when mated together. What you need to buy is an alignment tool which also doubles as a tool to straighten the hanger if it’s bent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hello pdlpsher1,
thanks for this hint. I was not aware of this and was already quite happy that my problem would potentially be soon resolved and I was looking forward to the new hanger delivery to try it out. Tomorrow I will ask someone from my cycling club if he has such a tool and could help me. If not I will buy the alignment tool. I suppose you mean the Park Tool DAG-2.2 (see picture below). I do not know yet how to opperate the tool but I was quickly reading the description of one dealer who sells it and obviously you can also correct determined hanger discrepancies by slighly bending the hanger with the tool. I was just wondering if you can do this bending also on a carbon frame? In any case I will come back to you.
Measuring and straightening tool for dropouts seems to be Park Tool FFG-2. I am wondering even more if you can align a carbon frame with this tool?
Issue with those two tools also seems to be that they currently can not be ordered....

[pdlpsher1]

Hi Fred,

The DAG-2.2 will work fine and that's what I own. But Park Tools recently introduced the DAG-3. It's pricier but it won't give you a more accurate alignment. See if any of your club mates have such a tool. There are lots of other makers of this tool, and all will work just fine.

Yes, you can bend the hanger that is attached to a carbon frame. The amount of force to align the hanger is very small. Another common issue (I've already mentioned this in a previous reply) is the hanger to the frame's dropout. The hanger is secured by two or more very small screws. These screws do come loose and if that is the case then the hanger will bend back and force as you shift, causing you shifting issues. Grab onto the RD and pull it side ways. Make sure there's zero play on the hanger itself. Normally the factory puts Loctite on the screws to prevent them from loosening, but they can still become loose over time. You want to make sure the hanger is secure to the frame before you do the hanger alignment. Otherwise you risk damaging your carbon frame.

In conclusion, your issue may or may not be a bent hanger. But the hanger is very FIRST thing to check for when there are rear shifting issues. The RD can't do its job if it's not mounted to a solid foundation. Likewise if you're telling me that you have a front shifting issue I'd point you to check for play and alignment in the bottom bracket. If there's an alignment issue or play in the crankset the FD cannot do it's job. I hope this helps.

[alcatraz]

With -16 it sounds like you've indexed the derailleur a whole gear jump sideways. The right number could be something like +3.

Is the wheel completely into the dropouts? When I see some people just lift their wheels in and close the skewers, I think the indexing must be unreliable.

Also the skewer pressure will affect your hanger so ensure you're using the same pressure all the time. If it's looser or tighter the indexing will be slightly off.

Also check for sideways play in the cassette, rd cage and upper pulley wheel. Maybe it's a manufacturing problem with too much play in those parts.

Got any bent teeth on those cogs? Or burrs perhaps.

[Fred12]

Hi Fred,

The DAG-2.2 will work fine and that's what I own. But Park Tools recently introduced the DAG-3. It's pricier but it won't give you a more accurate alignment. See if any of your club mates have such a tool. There are lots of other makers of this tool, and all will work just fine.

Yes, you can bend the hanger that is attached to a carbon frame. The amount of force to align the hanger is very small. Another common issue (I've already mentioned this in a previous reply) is the hanger to the frame's dropout. The hanger is secured by two or more very small screws. These screws do come loose and if that is the case then the hanger will bend back and force as you shift, causing you shifting issues. Grab onto the RD and pull it side ways. Make sure there's zero play on the hanger itself. Normally the factory puts Loctite on the screws to prevent them from loosening, but they can still become loose over time. You want to make sure the hanger is secure to the frame before you do the hanger alignment. Otherwise you risk damaging your carbon frame.

In conclusion, your issue may or may not be a bent hanger. But the hanger is very FIRST thing to check for when there are rear shifting issues. The RD can't do its job if it's not mounted to a solid foundation. Likewise if you're telling me that you have a front shifting issue I'd point you to check for play and alignment in the bottom bracket. If there's an alignment issue or play in the crankset the FD cannot do it's job. I hope this helps.

Hello pdlpsher1,
- I was able to order a Parktool DAG-2.2 today. In addition I contacted a club mate of my cycling club and he is also posessing a Parktool DAG-2.2. I will see my club mate tomorrow afternoon. Lets see if we can measure and correct the hanger if needed. Yesterday night I already watched the Parktool video of their DAG-2.2 tools and it seems to be fairly easy to operate. As a backup I will hopefully have my own DAG-2.2 tool in a few days. I will check the hanger screws before performing any possible bending. Right now they do not seem to be loose. It makes sense to me check the hanger at this point since all symptoms are pointing to it and I did not do it yet. And also to rule this possible root cause out. I will come back to you with the results and regarding next steps.
- Regarding my front derailleur inner position alignment issue I need to further analyze it. As I said this elctronic DI2 alignment functionality already worked once when I did it the first time but now when I try to repeat it DI2 does not react and trim anymore. In between I only manually adjusted the outer position using the screw as I saw in some manual. Only afterwards I read in the 9150 dealer manual that also the outer position can be electronically trimmed. I need to further analyze this. The bottom bracket had and still has no play. Only a couply of days ago I changed the bottom bracket. I put in a new CeramicSpeed Coated DUB 68-42 (press-fit, threaded) bottom bracket to be able to mount a Quark DFour Powermeter spindle with Quark crank arms and Shimano Dura Ace chainrings. This setup is working so far. I installed it as by the CeramicSpeed and Quark instructions using standard 3mm spacers between crank arm and bottom bracket on the drive train side and no spacer on the non-drive train side. On the non-drive train side there is only the pre-load ring which I tightend until there was no more play.

[pdlpsher1]

Very good. Hopefully you can get it figured out. When you’re ready to check it make sure you check the hanger attachment one more time, this time without the derailleur mounted. Hold on to the hanger and check for the slightest movement.

The 9150 FD has one manual and two electronic trim adjustments. Follow the Shimano manual step by step and you should be good there. I’m also running the same setup as you are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fred12]

Very good. Hopefully you can get it figured out. When you’re ready to check it make sure you check the hanger attachment one more time, this time without the derailleur mounted. Hold on to the hanger and check for the slightest movement.

The 9150 FD has one manual and two electronic trim adjustments. Follow the Shimano manual step by step and you should be good there. I’m also running the same setup as you are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With -16 it sounds like you've indexed the derailleur a whole gear jump sideways. The right number could be something like +3.

Is the wheel completely into the dropouts? When I see some people just lift their wheels in and close the skewers, I think the indexing must be unreliable.

Also the skewer pressure will affect your hanger so ensure you're using the same pressure all the time. If it's looser or tighter the indexing will be slightly off.

Also check for sideways play in the cassette, rd cage and upper pulley wheel. Maybe it's a manufacturing problem with too much play in those parts.

Got any bent teeth on those cogs? Or burrs perhaps.

Hello pdlpsher1 and all,
I hereby would like to give you an update how my DI2 shifting problem further developed this week. On Thursday the new hanger as well as the Parktool DAG-2.2 were shipped to me. Before the appointment with my cycling club comrade who also owns the Parktool DAG-2.2 and who is also running a small wheel builder business later that day I decided to install the new hanger to see if it already would resolve my issues. When I removed the old hanger I saw that it had some scratches on the back (see attached photo) My only explanation for the scratches is that I caused them myself. I could remember that I first mounted the new DI2 9150 derailleur in a wrong position causing the wheel and cassette to get stuck when I tried to insert the wheel. I need to apply a little bit of force to get the wheel lose again even if not much force and I did not have the feeling afterwards to have bent or damaged anything. Maybe I was wrong with this feeling. Indeed the new hanger resolved the main shifting problems on the smallest sprockets. I could not test the largest sprockets though since the chain was now to short. At this occasion on Thursday I had also changed the two front chain rings from 52/36 to 53/39 which I anyway still wanted to do. With the new hanger I could set a rear trim of +5 now. +3 maybe would also have been possible. There was still a small metallic noise though on the 6th sprocket from above. I then still went to see my cycling team comrade late on Thursday afternoon. He was quite happy to hear that my main shifting issues had been mainly resolved with the new hanger. He told me that in the meantime he had decided not to bend any hanger on my expensive Specialized S-Works SL6 carbon frame since the dealer of his Look carbon bike had advised him not to take that risk but I could borrow the Parktool DAG-2.2 from him to measure and bend myself. I thanked him and told him that not necessary since in the meantime I had also ordered and received the tool already. So, on the next day since I still had to extend the chain to test the large chain rings with the new hanger I decided to try out the Parktool DAG-2.2 still with the new hanger. I watched the Parktool DAG-2.2 Youtube video before and read the printed manual that came with the tool. While measuring it turned out that 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock deviation was <3mm but 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock deviation was 18mm. Then I decided to mount the old hanger again and measure and bend this one first. The old hanger had <3mm 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock deviation but 15mm 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock deviation (see attached photo). I was able to bend the 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock position deviation down to <2-3mm. Then re-measured the 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock deviation which had now increased to 10mm. I was also able to bend this deviation down to <2-3mm. At the end all 4 clock positions had a deviation of o <2-3mm as it should be according to instructions. Then I removed the tool, mounted the rear derailleur and the wheel again as well as I extended the chain by two links. I then performed the DI2 rear indexing again on the 5th sprocket. Surprising and positively welcomed result was that I could now set a rear trim of "0" (see attached photo of my Garmin 520). I was also able to electronically trim the inner positon of my front derailleur again. Surprising and positively welcomed result was that also I could set a front trim of "0" (see attached photo of my Garmin 520). @pdlpsher1, you are right, only inner position of the 9150 front derailleur can be adjusted electronically. Outer position is manually adjusted. I am now able to test shift all gears front (53-39) and rear (11-30) in my work stand without any issues and DI2 9150 is working as expected.

I hereby would like to thank all of you in this discussion forum who helped me with your expertise, tips and hints to find the root cause of this issue and helped to resolve it on my own. I especially would like to thank pdlpsher1 who insisted that I should first get the basics right for the DI2 9150 installation. After having gone myself through this hanger measuring and alignment experience I now understand how important this is for a gear shift to work correctly. And not only the gear shift but also the chain running much smoother and with much less friction and resistance. It is really some difference.

[pdlpsher1]

I'm very happy to read this! It's my pleasure to help! The DAG-2.2 tool is the most valuable tool in my shop. And I'm glad that you now own one as well. I'm also happy that you were determined to work through the problem yourself as opposed to taking it to a bike shop. Solving a problem on your own is very satisfying. With the money you saved by DIY you now own a very valuable tool.

There should be two electronic FD trim settings with the 9150. The pic. that you showed is the small-big I believe. Shift the chain to the big-big and then put the Di2 into the adjustment mode. I think you should see -12/x/12 come up. Adjust it so that the chain is 0.5mm from touching the inner cage.

ps it's normal to not have a '0' trim. Having a non-zero trim setting doesn't mean there's something wrong with the frame. So your goal should be to trim for perfect shifting and not necessarily a '0' trim.

[Fred12]

I'm very happy to read this! It's my pleasure to help! The DAG-2.2 tool is the most valuable tool in my shop. And I'm glad that you now own one as well. I'm also happy that you were determined to work through the problem yourself as opposed to taking it to a bike shop. Solving a problem on your own is very satisfying. With the money you saved by DIY you now own a very valuable tool.

There should be two electronic FD trim settings with the 9150. The pic. that you showed is the small-big I believe. Shift the chain to the big-big and then put the Di2 into the adjustment mode. I think you should see -12/x/12 come up. Adjust it so that the chain is 0.5mm from touching the inner cage.

ps it's normal to not have a '0' trim. Having a non-zero trim setting doesn't mean there's something wrong with the frame. So your goal should be to trim for perfect shifting and not necessarily a '0' trim.

Hello pdlpsher1,
after I was finally able to resolve my DI2 shifting issues on the smallest three sprockets with your help by measuring and bending my derailleur hanger I am suddenly experiencing the following problem since a few rides:
"Shimano DI2 9150 electronic gearshift has sporadic function failures for a duration of 30 seconds - 2 minutes"
I have opened a separate discussion thread for this topic under the following link:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=166791

Do you happen to have an idea regarding this issue as well ?

Many Thanks!

[pdlpsher1]

I just replied to your other thread and now I realized it was you. Yeah, I had the same issue on a fairly new battery. I have a second bike with Di2. I did a quick swap of the battery and everything started working again, confirming it was the battery. I got the battery replaced under the warranty. There's another thread on this issue and the OP had the battery replaced.