DI2 9150 does not shift correctly on the smallest 3 sprockets with large front chainring

[Fred12]

Hello everybody,
my newly installed and configured Shimano DI2 9150 unfortunately does not shift correctly on the smallest 3 sprockets with the large front chainring. I set everything up as described in the Shimano 9150 dealer manual. As explained there, I did the indexing on the 5th sprocket from the top. I had to set a trim of -16. The B-screw as well as the inner and outer limit screws are set according to the manual. Chainrings front are 52/36. An 11-30 cassette is mounted at the rear.
The problem is that if I am on the large chainring on the front and then shift down to the three smallest sprockets at the rear, these sprockets are not correctly shifted. Sometimes the second smallest sprocket is skipped. On the smallest sprocket then, the chain jumps back after 5 seconds to the second smallest sprocket. Sometimes there is no downshift from the second smallest to the smallest sprocket. Sometimes the chain lifts off the second smallest sprocket a bit, but then doesn't shift to the smallest sprocket. Starting from the fourth smallest sprocket down, the chain noise is also very loud and sounds "misaligned". If you look closely, you can see the rear derailleur gearshift indeed performing auto trimming on the second smallest and third smallest sprocket and then the chain noise becomes a little quieter.

Many thanks in advance!

[pdlpsher1]

You could have one or more issues. First thing is to check is your rear derailleur hanger alignment. You can't visually check it. You have to use the special tool to align the derailleur hanger to the wheel. Second thing is the position of the cassette. Make sure your casseette is positioned correctly, meaning it's within spec. for the distance between the 11th cog to the inside edge of the dropout. Are you using a weird freehub or wheel? Do you have the correct cog spacers in between the smallest cogs? Also make sure that there's no play in the freehub. To check it put your fingers on the 30T cog and rock it back and forth. It shouldn't move. The -16 trim is a giveaway that there' an issue with the cassette position. The trim should be near 0. Lastly, check your high limit screw and make sure the screw isn't preventing the derailleur from shifting to the smallest cog. The adjustment for the high limit screw also requires you to back off the screw a full turn to facilitate the overshfit feature of the Dura Ace RD.

[fa63]

Agreed with all the above; check RD hanger alignment, the high limit screw (you can back it off just a hair more without hurting anything), and make sure the cassette is installed correctly (40 NM is a lot; we have so many loose cassettes that come through the shop). As for B-tension, you can try backing that off some as well and see if it improves anything. Last but not least, check to make sure your chain is sized correctly.

Good luck!

[Fred12]

Hello pdlpsher1 and fa63,
many thanks for your replies:
- Unfortunately, I do not have any special tool to align the derailleur hanger to the wheel. I installed the rear derailleur to the existing hanger of the frame. My previous Shimano 9100 manual rear derailleur had been mounted to the same hanger. The hanger looks fairly standard to me and is not bend. I have a Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL6 frame. I mounted the new Shimano 9150 rear derailleur to the hanger as explained in the Shimano 9150 dealer manual and there is no gap
- Regarding the positioning of my cassette I can not say much. The wheelset is a fairly new Shimano Dura-Ace WH-R9100-C60-TU tubular rim brake with corresponding Shimano hubs, all standard. I put the new 11-30 Shimano Dura Ace cassette sprockets on the hub in correct order including inner spacers and then tightend the cassette up with 40Nm. All standard components mounted together. There is no play in the freehub.
- I adjusted all limit screws as by the Shimano 9150 dealer manual instructions meaning I also backed of the high limit screw a full turn. I even tested with various positions of the high limit screw screwing it almost completely out to be absolutely sure it would not hinder the motor to overshift but the issue is still the same
- I also put in another 2 chain links shorter chain, but also no improvement with the shorter chain
- I also did various tests with the various positons of the B-Limit screw, also no improvement to be noted afterwards
- The trim I need of -16 is certainly strange. I remember I had the shifting issues on the 3 smallest sockets from the very beginning and then performed a trim on each of those sprokest and then saved afterwards in maintenance mode but it did not resolve the issue. Then I read in the Shimano 9150 dealer manual that the trim needs to be performed on the 5th sprocket from above and then I did the trim also on this sprocket and saved. When I now look into the E-Projects App I can see trim rear "-16" and trim "0" front. So it seems that there is only one overall trim value? And not a trim value for each sprocket which I thought there would be?
- I am also having another problem now when the chain is on the largest sprocket and on the big front chainring it hits against the front derailleur. I tried to perform the inner electronic adjustment of the front derailleur in maintenance mode but the front derailleur is not moving. I was however already able to perform this electronic adjustment at the beginning of all my configuration once but for some reason I can not repeat it?

Any suggestions which I need to do next? I have already spent 1,5 days on this and I am pretty desperate currently. Should I reset to factory defaults and start indexing on the 5th sprocket again? Maybe my initial indexing on the lower sprockets confused DI2? If yes how to I reset to factory defaults? Do I do this with the E-Projects for Windows version on my notebook?
Or do you believe it is not an electronic DI2 issue and I rather have a cassette positioning issue to resolve ?

[ryanw]

99% sure it'll be the HL screw. Back it off entirely and the mech will have free roam to go into the 11T cog.

If not, you've potentially micro-adjusted the rear mech into its most inboard position, towards the cassette.

A hanger would have to be almost at snapping point to restrict the mech going past the 4th highest gear.

Or you've got a 10 speed spacer on the freehub.

In conclusion, take it to a shop. No doubt a 5 minute fix for someone that knows what they're doing.

[tleo]

When I now look into the E-Projects App I can see trim rear "-16" and trim "0" front. So it seems that there is only one overall trim value? And not a trim value for each sprocket which I thought there would be?

Yes. The trim on Di2 is equivalent to the barrel adjuster on a mechanical system.

I can't add to the comprehensive replies above but with a trim value of -16 something is defiantly off. On my Ultegra Di2 I've never been greater than a trim value of 2.

[pdlpsher1]

The RD only has one trim value (5th sprocket). The FD has not one but TWO saved trim values, big-big and small-big. If you have a Garmin GPS you can see the trim values dispayed on the screen as you adjust the trim in real-time. This saves you from having to mess with eTube. See if you can borrow a Garmin if you don't have one. My advice is to totally avoid using eTube as it has the potential to mess up/impede you even further.

Here's my suggestion. Despite what you think you know about Di2, search and view some Di2 setup videos. Watch the videos to get a full understanding on how Di2 works. Also, Di2 is an integrated system. Adjustment on the FD CAN affect the shifting performance on the rear. It's not common but it can happen.

Your issue might not be entirely an adjustment issue. To me it sounds like something else is at play. As I've already mentioned, the derailleur hanger alignment is absolutely critical. It doesn't matter if the bike is brand new or used, ridden a lot or hardly ridden. Without knowing if your hanger is truly aligned you're just shooting in the dark. Seconly, remove the rear wheel and make sure the derailleur hanger is not loose or wobbly. Third, make sure the rear wheel is absolutely square within the frame. Undo the quick release and put your weight on the saddle, then clamp the quick release. This ensures that your rear wheel is not crooked within the frame.

In conclusion, I agree with RyanW, take it to a shop as they can check the hanger alignment and spot other contributing factors to your woes.

[szazbo]

The FD has not one but TWO saved trim values, big-big and small-small.

Actually the 2 save FD trim values are big-big and small-big with big-small a mechanical adjustment, since the bike won't shift small-small. Good description and trouble shooting tips.

[pdlpsher1]

The FD has not one but TWO saved trim values, big-big and small-small.

Actually the 2 save FD trim values are big-big and small-big with big-small a mechanical adjustment, since the bike won't shift small-small. Good description and trouble shooting tips.

Yeah. I realized my mistake after I typed it but haven't gotten around in editing my message. I will do so. Thanks.

[Fred12]

99% sure it'll be the HL screw. Back it off entirely and the mech will have free roam to go into the 11T cog.

If not, you've potentially micro-adjusted the rear mech into its most inboard position, towards the cassette.

A hanger would have to be almost at snapping point to restrict the mech going past the 4th highest gear.

Or you've got a 10 speed spacer on the freehub.

In conclusion, take it to a shop. No doubt a 5 minute fix for someone that knows what they're doing.

- I already tested many different positions of the HL screw including backing it off almost entirely with no success
- As I wrote I indeed need to set a most inward trim of -16 towards the cassette to avoid very loud chain noise. If I e.g. set a trim of -12 very loud chain noise is resulting and the rear derailleur is shifting wrongly also on the largest sprockets and not only on the lowest sprockets. What is the best way to reset the entire current DI2 configuration and start indexing again from scratch only on the 5. sprocket as described in the 9150 dealer manual ?
- I bought the wheelset used from a pro bike team. The wheelset is in very good condition, almost new. So, I would be surprised if the there is a 10 speed spacer on the freehub. How would I recognized this ?
- What do you exactly mean by saying "bent rear derailleur hanger"? Do you mean the piece of gearshift bracket to which my DI2 9150 gearshift is currently attached? I did not mount the new DI2 9150 rear derailleur as a "direct mount", but simply mounted it onto the existing old gearshift bracket/hanger of my previous manual DuraAce 9100 gearshift. On the exploded view below, this part is hanger part marked with the number 1 ?
https://www.tnc-hamburg.com/TNC-Shop/Sc ... chaltwerk- No. 1-47742.html
I further reasearched in the internet and found that the gearshift bracket/hanger for the manual DuraAce 9100 gearshift has the item number Y5ZR98020 and for the electronic DuraAce 9150 gearshift this part has the item number Y5ZV98010. As I said, I simply mounted my electronic DuraAce 9150 gearshift onto the gearshift bracket/hanger to which my old manual DuraAce 9100 was previously attached. That would be a big surprise to me if two hanger components from the same series differ so much that they cause the effect of a "bent hanger" with correspondingly severe shifting problems. I just ordered the correct gearshift bracket/hanger with part number Y5ZV98010 to rule out this possible cause.
Does anyone here know if the 9100 Y5ZV98010 vs. 9150 Y5ZR98020 hangers are really so different that they could be the root cause of my shifting problem? It will take a few days for the 9150 Y5ZR98020 rear derailleur bracket/hanger to arrive and for me to try it out. Otherwise I would already research or try for other causes?
Attached are three photos of my DI2 9150 rear derailleur as it is currently installed.

Many thanks!

[Maddie]

To me, a -16 trim sounds like
1) bent rear derailleur hanger (highest probability)
2) a wheel that is installed incorrectly/not aligned
3) the rear derailleur itself took a hit/is bent

It doesn't take much for a hanger to get bent, sometimes they are slightly bent even on factory new bikes. Before trying different Di2 settings, start with the basics. That is rear derailleur hanger alignment and wheel alignment. What will help you is this:
https://www.parktool.com/product/derail ... ge-dag-2-2

[Fred12]

The RD only has one trim value (5th sprocket). The FD has not one but TWO saved trim values, big-big and small-big. If you have a Garmin GPS you can see the trim values dispayed on the screen as you adjust the trim in real-time. This saves you from having to mess with eTube. See if you can borrow a Garmin if you don't have one. My advice is to totally avoid using eTube as it has the potential to mess up/impede you even further.

Here's my suggestion. Despite what you think you know about Di2, search and view some Di2 setup videos. Watch the videos to get a full understanding on how Di2 works. Also, Di2 is an integrated system. Adjustment on the FD CAN affect the shifting performance on the rear. It's not common but it can happen.

Your issue might not be entirely an adjustment issue. To me it sounds like something else is at play. As I've already mentioned, the derailleur hanger alignment is absolutely critical. It doesn't matter if the bike is brand new or used, ridden a lot or hardly ridden. Without knowing if your hanger is truly aligned you're just shooting in the dark. Seconly, remove the rear wheel and make sure the derailleur hanger is not loose or wobbly. Third, make sure the rear wheel is absolutely square within the frame. Undo the quick release and put your weight on the saddle, then clamp the quick release. This ensures that your rear wheel is not crooked within the frame.

In conclusion, I agree with RyanW, take it to a shop as they can check the hanger alignment and spot other contributing factors to your woes.

Hello pdlpsher1,
- regarding my hanger finding please read the answer I just posted to ryanw. Maybe you can also comment on this finding as you said "something else is at play and hanger is critical"-
- what is the best way to reset all my current DI2 configuration and start indexing on the 5. sprocket again ?
- I am indeed having a Garmin GPS 520 which I connected to my DI2 (and I did the secret shifter leaver buttons configuration for Garmin use). I am also using the DI2 wireless module. I have configured the E-Project App to connect to my DI2 and I also have the DI2 for Windows software installed on my notebook
- according to my 9150 dealer manual there are in total 37 trim steps for the lower position of the front derailleur. 18 steps in and 18 steps out. The upper position is supposed to have 25 trim steps (12 in and 12 out). I have watched some videos (e.g. GCN) which are saying that upper position trimming is manual. As I said in my E-Project app I can only see one value currently for the front trimming and it appears to be "0".

- currently the situation here with the bike shops is not good. Most are rejecting to accept new service orders. If the accept it they will tell you it will take some weeks until you get your bike back. Since the weather is currently good I would like to ride my road bike and not have it for weeks in a repair shop...

Thanks!

[Omiar]

- Put the chain on the 5th sprocket, go into indexing mode and max out the indexing to either direction, then count half the steps back.
Ideally you want you gears to be indexed but have the option to re-index on the fly to either direction if there is any unforeseen problem during a ride.

- If you have any old chain, try the shortest chain possible.

- Don't forget that the rear hub and hub caps affect the cassette position. Inspect your rear wheel carefully for any "pro mechanic" modifications.

[Fred12]

The RD only has one trim value (5th sprocket). The FD has not one but TWO saved trim values, big-big and small-big. If you have a Garmin GPS you can see the trim values dispayed on the screen as you adjust the trim in real-time. This saves you from having to mess with eTube. See if you can borrow a Garmin if you don't have one. My advice is to totally avoid using eTube as it has the potential to mess up/impede you even further.

Here's my suggestion. Despite what you think you know about Di2, search and view some Di2 setup videos. Watch the videos to get a full understanding on how Di2 works. Also, Di2 is an integrated system. Adjustment on the FD CAN affect the shifting performance on the rear. It's not common but it can happen.

Your issue might not be entirely an adjustment issue. To me it sounds like something else is at play. As I've already mentioned, the derailleur hanger alignment is absolutely critical. It doesn't matter if the bike is brand new or used, ridden a lot or hardly ridden. Without knowing if your hanger is truly aligned you're just shooting in the dark. Seconly, remove the rear wheel and make sure the derailleur hanger is not loose or wobbly. Third, make sure the rear wheel is absolutely square within the frame. Undo the quick release and put your weight on the saddle, then clamp the quick release. This ensures that your rear wheel is not crooked within the frame.

In conclusion, I agree with RyanW, take it to a shop as they can check the hanger alignment and spot other contributing factors to your woes.

Hello pdlpsher1,
- regarding my hanger finding please read the answer I just posted to ryanw. Maybe you can also comment on this finding as you said "something else is at play and hanger is critical"-
- what is the best way to reset all my current DI2 configuration and start indexing on the 5. sprocket again ?
- I am indeed having a Garmin GPS 520 which I connected to my DI2 (and I did the secret shifter leaver buttons configuration for Garmin use). I am also using the DI2 wireless module. I have configured the E-Project App to connect to my DI2 and I also have the DI2 for Windows software installed on my notebook
- according to my 9150 dealer manual there are in total 37 trim steps for the lower position of the front derailleur. 18 steps in and 18 steps out. The upper position is supposed to have 25 trim steps (12 in and 12 out). I have watched some videos (e.g. GCN) which are saying that upper position trimming is manual. As I said in my E-Project app I can only see one value currently for the front trimming and it appears to be "0".

- currently the situation here with the bike shops is not good. Most are rejecting to accept new service orders. If the accept it they will tell you it will take some weeks until you get your bike back. Since the weather is currently good I would like to ride my road bike and not have it for weeks in a repair shop...

Thanks!

Hello pdlpsher1,
Sorry, I just realized I got confused. Indeed the gear shift hanger 9150 with the part number Y5ZV98010 was part of my 9150 new product delivery and I used it for mounting the rear derailleur. to the frame. So this part can not be bent because it is new. Instead, I just realized that when all of you are saying hanger it must indeed be the part which is directly attached to the frame and to which the whole rear derailleur is mounted to. I did search in the Internet and found following website from which I have now order a new such hanger part. I hope this fits to my Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL6 rim brake from 2019. I also hope they will ship it to me in the next few days, so that I can at least exclude this possible root cause.
https://www.schaltauge.de/Specialized-S ... -ROAD.html

[Fred12]

The RD only has one trim value (5th sprocket). The FD has not one but TWO saved trim values, big-big and small-big. If you have a Garmin GPS you can see the trim values dispayed on the screen as you adjust the trim in real-time. This saves you from having to mess with eTube. See if you can borrow a Garmin if you don't have one. My advice is to totally avoid using eTube as it has the potential to mess up/impede you even further.

Here's my suggestion. Despite what you think you know about Di2, search and view some Di2 setup videos. Watch the videos to get a full understanding on how Di2 works. Also, Di2 is an integrated system. Adjustment on the FD CAN affect the shifting performance on the rear. It's not common but it can happen.

Your issue might not be entirely an adjustment issue. To me it sounds like something else is at play. As I've already mentioned, the derailleur hanger alignment is absolutely critical. It doesn't matter if the bike is brand new or used, ridden a lot or hardly ridden. Without knowing if your hanger is truly aligned you're just shooting in the dark. Seconly, remove the rear wheel and make sure the derailleur hanger is not loose or wobbly. Third, make sure the rear wheel is absolutely square within the frame. Undo the quick release and put your weight on the saddle, then clamp the quick release. This ensures that your rear wheel is not crooked within the frame.

In conclusion, I agree with RyanW, take it to a shop as they can check the hanger alignment and spot other contributing factors to your woes.

Hello pdlpsher1,
- regarding my hanger finding please read the answer I just posted to ryanw. Maybe you can also comment on this finding as you said "something else is at play and hanger is critical"-
- what is the best way to reset all my current DI2 configuration and start indexing on the 5. sprocket again ?
- I am indeed having a Garmin GPS 520 which I connected to my DI2 (and I did the secret shifter leaver buttons configuration for Garmin use). I am also using the DI2 wireless module. I have configured the E-Project App to connect to my DI2 and I also have the DI2 for Windows software installed on my notebook
- according to my 9150 dealer manual there are in total 37 trim steps for the lower position of the front derailleur. 18 steps in and 18 steps out. The upper position is supposed to have 25 trim steps (12 in and 12 out). I have watched some videos (e.g. GCN) which are saying that upper position trimming is manual. As I said in my E-Project app I can only see one value currently for the front trimming and it appears to be "0".

- currently the situation here with the bike shops is not good. Most are rejecting to accept new service orders. If the accept it they will tell you it will take some weeks until you get your bike back. Since the weather is currently good I would like to ride my road bike and not have it for weeks in a repair shop...

Thanks!

Hello pdlpsher1,
Sorry, I just realized I got confused. Indeed the gear shift hanger 9150 with the part number Y5ZV98010 was part of my 9150 new product delivery and I used it for mounting the rear derailleur. to the frame. So this part can not be bent because it is new. Instead, I just realized that when all of you are saying hanger it must indeed be the part which is directly attached to the frame and to which the whole rear derailleur is mounted to. I did search in the Internet and found following website from which I have now order a new such hanger part. I hope this fits to my Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL6 rim brake from 2019. I also hope they will ship it to me in the next few days, so that I can at least exclude this possible root cause.
https://www.schaltauge.de/Specialized-S ... -ROAD.html

P.S.: In addition here are some pictures. It is difficult to say by looking it it. The rear derailleur is new and can not be bent. Only possibility is the hanger attached to the frame which could possibly be bent