Did anybody get a 1x12 road bike and regretted it due to the larger gaps between gears?

[bedampft]

And come on: changing rings on a 1x before every ride is just not practical.

I guess once you have "unlearned" the reflexes that make you just know when it's time to switch rings or when it's time to sit it out with a bit of crosschaining and/or cadence flexibility (or if you never
learned those reflexes), changing rings within a ride seems almost as impractical

To the 2x mind the rings and where to switch between them are just part of the landscape, but that certainly doesn't even remotely make any sense when taking a step back. Meanwhile, the grouch inside of me claims that he would miss that part of the landscape like he would the birds and the trees...

Well, I can do that while riding my bike
With the 1x I can't just hop on the bike, depending on what I'll want to do, because I've to get out the tools and chainrings before.
I'm also not likely to ride indoors, when the isn't already on the trainer.

One could argue that n+1 is a solution for that

When living in a "target rich" environment 1x isn't a good option.
In my usual area, lets say 60km around my hometown, we got >12 climbs up to more 1000m altitude, >30 betweeen 500m to 1000m altitude alone. We have mellow passes (<10%) on wide roads, to very small, technical and steep uphills (>10%, usually >14%), and flat terrain to go fast with lots of (head)wind. So I need every bit of my 52/36 x 11-32 when tackling my favourite 17% climbs and bombing down shallow downhills with >60kph while training. And when not riding alone, but with friends I'm using diffrent gears again. Even got a friend who's still riding 3x10 and very happy with it.

And come on: changing rings on a 1x before every ride is just not practical.

where do you live ? sounds great !!!!!!!

Europe. But at the moment in JP.

[WattagePeaShooter]

On the topic of actually pulling the trigger on 1x: It's abundantly clear that there are upsides and downsides to either solution and it boils down to whether those downsides actually matter to you and your riding needs/preferences.

What helped me pull the trigger on my 1x12 Etap (despite the downsides discussed at length here) was the fact that IF I actually don't like it, it's not that hard to switch back to 2x. Sure, there are the costs of a front mech, chainrings (and cassette if it's the jumps, rather than range), but 1x was cheaper to start with and there's no need for rewiring etc. So for me the costs of trying 1x and regretting it were worth the allure of the 1x road setup since I already liked 1x11 for gravel/touring. So far I'm happy with the choice, but I may still change it to 2x if my riding involves longer hill-riding or more group riding.

[usr]

If you think about it too long you might end up with the desire for a narrow front 2x, like in pre-compact days. But with an "almost 1x wide" rear that would give you enough overlap to hardly ever require a shift in the front.

[Lina]

Sorry to continue the slightly O/T conversation, but I have to disagree with this. As a Campagnolo user the issue preventing me going 12s (apart from cost!) is lack of 12t starting sprocket plus 29t minimum. They all start with 11t! what a way to squander the advantage of 12s..

The closest 11s ratios are 11-23 and 12-25. Closest 12s is 11-29. I have an 11s wheel set up with 12-25 (shorter rides, or where no super steep climbs), and another with 12-27 plus a triplet 23-26-29 option to swap over when I need, as the rest of the cassette has the same gears.

53/12 or 52/12 are useful gears and if I needed more than that I'm certainly better off freewheeling. Not quite a flatlander; 55ft/mile is average here, but no mountains whatsoever.

So go down to 50t or even 48t big ring. There are very few people that should be on anything above 50t. The times of big chainrings come from when cassettes started at 13t. I said it in my previous post and I'll say it again, if you're missing the 18t your chainrings are too big. Outside of that one cog the tightest 12 cassette is practically the same as the tightest 11s cassettes with not one but two extra gears.

[cunn1n9]

I just ripped the 1x11 off my CX/gravel bike and went GRX 2x di2. So much better.

I think the main attraction of 1x is looks. It’s cleaner for sure. But you don’t have bikes to look at but to ride and close ratios and range is best for actual riding

Now consider this. The two places 1x work is first MTB and 2nd CX. But in CX the very best riders like MvdP and Wout van Aert ride 2x don’t they. They are getting paid to win and want the best bike to ride not look at.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cunn1n9]

I just ripped the 1x11 off my CX/gravel bike and went GRX 2x di2. So much better.

I think the main attraction of 1x is looks. It’s cleaner for sure. But you don’t have bikes to look at but to ride and close ratios and range is best for actual riding

Now consider this. The two places 1x work is first MTB and 2nd CX. But in CX the very best riders like MvdP and Wout van Aert ride 2x don’t they.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[synchronicity]

Anyway {I think} there should always be the choice (of both close ratio cassettes and humongous gappy dinner-plate-sized cassettes). More choice is good isn't it? Ideally it should remain. But it never does (for long), because now they are phasing out all the close-ratio stuff in 12+ speeds. 21T? Gone. 23T? Gone. 25T? Gone. 27T? Gone.

Why is that exactly? Flat terrain still exists, it hasn't changed! But it's not just flat terrain. Even for climbs, if I'm doing a 2+ hour climb on an average 5% gradient, I want the gears to be close together in the upper part of the cassette, rather than stuck in one gear the whole time. Because pace and rythm changes a bit on a ride that long. Otherwise it gets monotonous (for me).

That's why people such as myself are kinda getting pissed with brands today. I used to be a loyal unquestioning customer... so it's like I feel like I've been forgotten, left behind. I feel a bit like one of those abandonded bees you see on a beach, left the hive for good, unwanted, ostracised. (I should probably start a hashtag on instagram like #savethefrontderailleur)

Because 12 speed corn cobs are useless. Let's see some real comparisons about the tightest 11 and 12 speed Campy cassettes (11 - 23 and 11 - 29). The differences between them are pretty much as follows: as you go from 11 to 12 speed you trade 18t to 26t and add 29t on top. So you're essentially changing two 6% jumps in the 17t to 19t gap to one 12% jump and adding two more gears on top of the 23t so that you'll never need another cassette unless you're climbing super steep and long climbs. If you're using the 18t when riding fast on flat ground you're either going against hellish head wind or your chainrings are way too big for you. And I don't know anyone that has such a preference for one specific cadence that they can't tolerate 12% jumps when they're just plodding along at zone 2.

So you're a flatlander and don't need the range, then yes staying on 11 speed may be better as you don't need the extra range and you'll save some weight. No one is telling you to move to 12 speed because more gears is always better. On flat terrain you could get away with 10 or 9 speed just as well. But complaining how the 12 speed cassette offerings are worse shows a critical lack of understanding how gear ratios work. As you go up higher on the cassette one tooth jumps become smaller and smaller in gear ratio. That's why the jumps higher on the cassette are larger.

11 - 23t 12 speed cassette would be worse than a 11 speed version of the same cassette. You'd have 5% jumps between 19t and 21t. That's something you'd almost always skip over because when your cadence drops or goes up enough that you wish to change gears 5% isn't enough most of the time. I could see someone crying for an 11 - 25t 12 speed corn cob. But then what's the point of that? What terrain are you riding if you specifically want/need that type of a cassette? The range it offers is still quite small so you'd need something with tons of really shallow climbs for that to be ideal. Then as a manufacturer you take a look at the 18t and think real hard do you really need those 6% jumps at that part of the cassette and how often do you just skip over a gear in that region. Decide it's not really necessary, take off the 18t, adjust the 25t to 26t, and add the extra cog as 29t, and you've got a 11 - 29t cassette that works everywhere. 11 - 25t 12 speed cassette wouldn't sell to anyone else but people that absolutely need a corn cob because it looks cool. The market share would be so small that it makes no sense for anyone to make one.

Thanks for your lengthy reply.
I understand that perfectly, really it's not that complicated. Percentage gaps get less as we move up the cassette, I get it.

You have your 11-29, 11-32 and 11-34T cassettes. No one here is trying to tell you that "you don't need them". And I'll gladly mount a >27T cassette if and when I move back into a mountainous region.

But my point is, no, the 11-29T cassette does not 'work' everywhere. That's your assumption. It doesn't work in flat terrain as well as an 11 speed 12-25T cassette (say). The latter has more cogs where you need them! What kind of 'upgrade' is that then, to 12 speed? It's a downgrade! And even you know that.

What's it to you if I (we) want a closer-ratio cassette? I don't think a corn cob cassette is useless! It's a thing of beauty, a sight to behold! Don't deny me (us) that.

That's part of the problem, you're trying to tell people that have been cycling for 30 years what they should want/need. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I know better than you what I want/need. Likewise, you know better than me what you want/need. See how that works? *tongue in cheek*

I live in Australia. The largest "mountain" on the whole continent is 2228m. I honestly wish there were taller mountains here, I do. And if you live in Holland, forget the 29T, let alone the 32 or 34T. It's just... completely the wrong gearing for the type of terrain. They're not the only places. I hear Chicago is as flat as a pancake too, as are many other regions.

Campagnolo could be selling two or even three cassettes to every rider. Instead, they're trying a "one size fits all" approach. They assume (incorrectly) that everyone wants more range. Half the reason they did it this way is because they offset the last cog into the spokes. In other words, they cheated a bit , because now having smaller cogs means that the derailleur cage will bash into the spokes. That's the real reason they aren't offering 11/25 12 speed cassettes or whatever, not because they are 'useless'.

I want to spend money on new kit. I don't want to be a retrogrouch. The industry is forcing me in that direction though.
FWIW, my first road bike came with an 21T cassette. I wanted a larger one, even mentioned it to the shop. I grew to like it.

Lastly, remember, this is a forum, not everyone has to agree. Disagreement is healthy.

[tomato]

Because 12 speed corn cobs are useless. Let's see some real comparisons about the tightest 11 and 12 speed Campy cassettes (11 - 23 and 11 - 29). The differences between them are pretty much as follows: as you go from 11 to 12 speed you trade 18t to 26t and add 29t on top. So you're essentially changing two 6% jumps in the 17t to 19t gap to one 12% jump and adding two more gears on top of the 23t so that you'll never need another cassette unless you're climbing super steep and long climbs. If you're using the 18t when riding fast on flat ground you're either going against hellish head wind or your chainrings are way too big for you.

You've made this silly statement (or something similar) a couple of times. Spinning at 90 RPM on your big chain ring (50 or 53) and an 18 tooth sprocket puts you at about 20-21 mph. Why in the world would that imply a strong headhead or that your chain rings are too big?

[Andrew69]

If you think about it too long you might end up with the desire for a narrow front 2x, like in pre-compact days. But with an "almost 1x wide" rear that would give you enough overlap to hardly ever require a shift in the front.

So what you want is SRAM X-Range gearing....aka SRAM AXS

[kkotsiouros]

Because 12 speed corn cobs are useless. Let's see some real comparisons about the tightest 11 and 12 speed Campy cassettes (11 - 23 and 11 - 29). The differences between them are pretty much as follows: as you go from 11 to 12 speed you trade 18t to 26t and add 29t on top. So you're essentially changing two 6% jumps in the 17t to 19t gap to one 12% jump and adding two more gears on top of the 23t so that you'll never need another cassette unless you're climbing super steep and long climbs. If you're using the 18t when riding fast on flat ground you're either going against hellish head wind or your chainrings are way too big for you.

You've made this silly statement (or something similar) a couple of times. Spinning at 90 RPM on your big chain ring (50 or 53) and an 18 tooth sprocket puts you at about 20-21 mph. Why in the world would that imply a strong headhead or that your chain rings are too big?

Maybe because it requires only 140 watts to do this without strong headwind ? Or maybe because you can use 48x17 to have the same speed without too big chainring (with better chainline)? Is 20mph your most time riding speed ? If yes Is the chainline straight with 52x18 at 20mph(cassette 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23) ?

[Andrew69]

That's part of the problem, you're trying to tell people that have been cycling for 30 years what they should want/need. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I know better than you what I want/need. Likewise, you know better than me what you want/need. See how that works? *tongue in cheek*

Companies dont give a damn what I want or what you want, they only care how they can rationalize their inventory to keep as few products as possible to cater to the largest buying group possible.

If that means that a few people will get upset but ultimately have little choice but to buy what is available, then so be it

[synchronicity]

That's part of the problem, you're trying to tell people that have been cycling for 30 years what they should want/need. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I know better than you what I want/need. Likewise, you know better than me what you want/need. See how that works? *tongue in cheek*

Companies dont give a damn what I want or what you want, they only care how they can rationalize their inventory to keep as few products as possible to cater to the largest buying group possible.

If that means that a few people will get upset but ultimately have little choice but to buy what is available, then so be it

True.

[Lina]

But my point is, no, the 11-29T cassette does not 'work' everywhere. That's your assumption. It doesn't work in flat terrain as well as an 11 speed 12-25T cassette (say). The latter has more cogs where you need them! What kind of 'upgrade' is that then, to 12 speed? It's a downgrade! And even you know that.

How many gears do you need spaced right next to each other on flat terrain? Having 1t jumps between 11t and 17t should be enough for flat terrain, in fact if it's flat you wouldn't need anything beyond that range provided your chainring(s) are the right size. That's my entire point. If it doesn't work your chainrings are the wrong size. But yes, if you insist on using 53t/52t chainring because that's what you've always done it can be a downgrade. If you don't need the range then yes, it can be a downgrade because of the increased weight. But then it'd be a downgrade even if they provided tighter cassettes because the increased weight would still be there.

Because 12 speed corn cobs are useless. Let's see some real comparisons about the tightest 11 and 12 speed Campy cassettes (11 - 23 and 11 - 29). The differences between them are pretty much as follows: as you go from 11 to 12 speed you trade 18t to 26t and add 29t on top. So you're essentially changing two 6% jumps in the 17t to 19t gap to one 12% jump and adding two more gears on top of the 23t so that you'll never need another cassette unless you're climbing super steep and long climbs. If you're using the 18t when riding fast on flat ground you're either going against hellish head wind or your chainrings are way too big for you.

You've made this silly statement (or something similar) a couple of times. Spinning at 90 RPM on your big chain ring (50 or 53) and an 18 tooth sprocket puts you at about 20-21 mph. Why in the world would that imply a strong headhead or that your chain rings are too big?

Because 20 mph isn't fast on flat terrain if there isn't head wind pushing against you. That's an all day pace for a trained cyclist. And based on everyone I know they don't care nearly as much about the gearing when they're just plodding along at zone 2, you can easily just do what feels good at the gears you have instead of trying to eek out every watt you can constantly as you do when you're going fast. That's when the jumps matter a lot more.

[synchronicity]

And what does a Dutch cyclist do with a 29T cog? That's more 'useless' than an 18T one isn't it?

[tjvirden]

Because 12 speed corn cobs are useless. Let's see some real comparisons about the tightest 11 and 12 speed Campy cassettes (11 - 23 and 11 - 29). The differences between them are pretty much as follows: as you go from 11 to 12 speed you trade 18t to 26t and add 29t on top. So you're essentially changing two 6% jumps in the 17t to 19t gap to one 12% jump and adding two more gears on top of the 23t so that you'll never need another cassette unless you're climbing super steep and long climbs.If you're using the 18t when riding fast on flat ground you're either going against hellish head wind or your chainrings are way too big for you.

You've made this silly statement (or something similar) a couple of times. Spinning at 90 RPM on your big chain ring (50 or 53) and an 18 tooth sprocket puts you at about 20-21 mph. Why in the world would that imply a strong headhead or that your chain rings are too big?

Maybe because it requires only 140 watts to do this without strong headwind ? Or maybe because you can use 48x17 to have the same speed without too big chainring (with better chainline)? Is 20mph your most time riding speed ? If yes Is the chainline straight with 52x18 at 20mph(cassette 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23) ?

On a road bike? You can't be serious. This might possibly be the case for a tiny rider on perfect tarmac with all aspects of aerodynamics optimised (say 45Kg, with extremely low CdA). For everyone else, almost all the time, on almost all tarmac, it's way, way higher than this. Then when you introduce a real-world gentle breeze the variation in power vs direction is very large in % terms.

Gearing preference is personal, but once the vast majority of riders work close to their limit, for whatever the relevant duration is, jumps of more than 12% become very inconvenient. 5% isn't much of a change, except for hour record attempts, but there always has to be a compromise between spacing and range. Even for 2x15.