Lina wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:55 am
synchronicity wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:25 am
Anyway {I think} there should always be the choice (of both close ratio cassettes and humongous gappy dinner-plate-sized cassettes). More choice is good isn't it? Ideally it should remain. But it never does (for long), because now they are phasing out all the close-ratio stuff in 12+ speeds. 21T? Gone. 23T? Gone. 25T? Gone. 27T? Gone.
Why is that exactly? Flat terrain still exists, it hasn't changed! But it's not just flat terrain. Even for climbs, if I'm doing a 2+ hour climb on an average 5% gradient, I want the gears to be close together in the upper part of the cassette, rather than stuck in one gear the whole time. Because pace and rythm changes a bit on a ride that long. Otherwise it gets monotonous (for me).
That's why people such as myself are kinda getting pissed with brands today. I used to be a loyal unquestioning customer... so it's like I feel like I've been forgotten, left behind. I feel a bit like one of those abandonded bees you see on a beach, left the hive for good, unwanted, ostracised.
(I should probably start a hashtag on instagram like #savethefrontderailleur
)
Because 12 speed corn cobs are useless. Let's see some real comparisons about the tightest 11 and 12 speed Campy cassettes (11 - 23 and 11 - 29). The differences between them are pretty much as follows: as you go from 11 to 12 speed you trade 18t to 26t and add 29t on top. So you're essentially changing two 6% jumps in the 17t to 19t gap to one 12% jump and adding two more gears on top of the 23t so that you'll never need another cassette unless you're climbing super steep and long climbs. If you're using the 18t when riding fast on flat ground you're either going against hellish head wind or your chainrings are way too big for you. And I don't know anyone that has such a preference for one specific cadence that they can't tolerate 12% jumps when they're just plodding along at zone 2.
So you're a flatlander and don't need the range, then yes staying on 11 speed may be better as you don't need the extra range and you'll save some weight. No one is telling you to move to 12 speed because more gears is always better. On flat terrain you could get away with 10 or 9 speed just as well.
But complaining how the 12 speed cassette offerings are worse shows a critical lack of understanding how gear ratios work. As you go up higher on the cassette one tooth jumps become smaller and smaller in gear ratio. That's why the jumps higher on the cassette are larger.
11 - 23t 12 speed cassette would be worse than a 11 speed version of the same cassette. You'd have 5% jumps between 19t and 21t. That's something you'd almost always skip over because when your cadence drops or goes up enough that you wish to change gears 5% isn't enough most of the time. I could see someone crying for an 11 - 25t 12 speed corn cob. But then what's the point of that? What terrain are you riding if you specifically want/need that type of a cassette? The range it offers is still quite small so you'd need something with tons of really shallow climbs for that to be ideal. Then as a manufacturer you take a look at the 18t and think real hard do you really need those 6% jumps at that part of the cassette and how often do you just skip over a gear in that region. Decide it's not really necessary, take off the 18t, adjust the 25t to 26t, and add the extra cog as 29t, and you've got a 11 - 29t cassette that works everywhere. 11 - 25t 12 speed cassette wouldn't sell to anyone else but people that absolutely need a corn cob because it looks cool. The market share would be so small that it makes no sense for anyone to make one.
Thanks for your lengthy reply.
I understand that perfectly, really it's not that complicated. Percentage gaps get less as we move up the cassette, I get it.
You have your 11-29, 11-32 and 11-34T cassettes. No one here is trying to tell you that "you don't need them". And I'll gladly mount a >27T cassette if and when I move back into a mountainous region.
But my point is, no, the 11-29T cassette does not 'work' everywhere. That's your assumption. It doesn't work in flat terrain as well as an 11 speed 12-25T cassette (say). The latter has more cogs where you need them! What kind of 'upgrade' is that then, to 12 speed? It's a downgrade! And even you know that.
What's it to you if I (we) want a closer-ratio cassette? I don't think a corn cob cassette is useless!
It's a thing of beauty, a sight to behold!
Don't deny me (us) that.
That's part of the problem, you're trying to tell people that have been cycling for 30 years what they should want/need. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.
I know better than you what
I want/need. Likewise,
you know better than me what
you want/need. See how that works? *tongue in cheek*
I live in Australia. The largest "mountain" on the whole continent is 2228m. I honestly wish there were taller mountains here, I do.
And if you live in Holland, forget the 29T, let alone the 32 or 34T. It's just... completely the wrong gearing for the type of terrain. They're not the only places. I hear Chicago is as flat as a pancake too, as are many other regions.
Campagnolo could be selling two or even three cassettes to every rider. Instead, they're trying a "one size fits all" approach. They assume (incorrectly) that
everyone wants more range.
Half the reason they did it this way is because they offset the last cog into the spokes. In other words, they cheated a bit
, because now having smaller cogs means that the derailleur cage will bash into the spokes. That's the real reason they aren't offering 11/25 12 speed cassettes or whatever, not because they are 'useless'.
I want to spend money on new kit.
I don't want to be a retrogrouch. The industry is forcing me in that direction though.
FWIW, my first road bike came with an 21T cassette. I wanted a larger one, even mentioned it to the shop. I grew to like it.
Lastly, remember, this is a forum, not everyone has to agree. Disagreement is healthy.