Did anybody get a 1x12 road bike and regretted it due to the larger gaps between gears?

[nickf]

Dunno 2x setups have double the available options when it comes to finding a gear. I don't care about 1x and 2x having the same "range" 1x is still missing all the other bits in the middle. Maybe if you live in a flat region then it would be acceptable.

1x on the mountain bike is barely acceptable, with huge gaps, and a useless 10t. The original 2x sram XX was the best groupset I have ever had on a MTB, sorry I ever sold it.

I'm also a retro grouch.....

[Global]

I have been riding 1x on the road for 10 years and have no regrets. Every time I ride a bike with a front derailer I regret it. Started with a 11-32 11 speed and a 44 front ring and as I close in on 65 I’m glad to have the option of 10-36 12 speed. I don’t race but usually can hang with fast group rides.

[Lina]

Don't really understand the complaints about Campys 12 speed cassettes. I'm on 11 speed right now and the 12 speed cassettes look an improvement to that. I have a 11 - 23 but I don't use it because the bigger cogs are simply too close together. The 1t jumps at the upper end of a cassette are a lot smaller in ratio than those at the smaller end. Missing 16t feels awful to me, missing 18t doesn't. Having wider jumps at the upper end of the cassette is what I want, when you're going slower and the wind isn't pushing as much against you you can tolerate the bigger jumps a lot better. 11 - 25 12 speed cassette isn't something you'd really want to ever ride even if you're a flatlander. You'll be jumping over gears in the upper end of the cassette constantly. And you don't have range if you get to a hill. If you choose the correct chainrings for your legs and terrain you won't even be in the bigger jumps of the 11 - 29 Campy cassette unless you're going uphill where the speed is slower and you want the slightly bigger jumps between gears. I could maybe see how that cassette becomes a problem if you're riding a chainring that's too big for you so that your legs can't cash the checks your ego is writing so that you're constantly on the upper end of the cassette even on flat ground.

Dunno 2x setups have double the available options when it comes to finding a gear. I don't care about 1x and 2x having the same "range" 1x is still missing all the other bits in the middle. Maybe if you live in a flat region then it would be acceptable.

1x on the mountain bike is barely acceptable, with huge gaps, and a useless 10t. The original 2x sram XX was the best groupset I have ever had on a MTB, sorry I ever sold it.

I'm also a retro grouch.....

But they don't have double the available options. In reality they have 14 - 16 real usable options. At about 14 speed also comes the point where 1x is just as viable as 2x in terms of gear range and jumps.

As for MTBs I'm not sure why exactly you'd want tight gaps on them. Why 1x works so nice on MTBs is that you often want to change your ratio noticeably quite fast. And the 10t works well as an overdrive for those easy downhills where you're pedaling.

[Nickldn]

Don't really understand the complaints about Campys 12 speed cassettes. I'm on 11 speed right now and the 12 speed cassettes look an improvement to that. I have a 11 - 23 but I don't use it because the bigger cogs are simply too close together. The 1t jumps at the upper end of a cassette are a lot smaller in ratio than those at the smaller end. Missing 16t feels awful to me, missing 18t doesn't. Having wider jumps at the upper end of the cassette is what I want, when you're going slower and the wind isn't pushing as much against you you can tolerate the bigger jumps a lot better. 11 - 25 12 speed cassette isn't something you'd really want to ever ride even if you're a flatlander. You'll be jumping over gears in the upper end of the cassette constantly. And you don't have range if you get to a hill. If you choose the correct chainrings for your legs and terrain you won't even be in the bigger jumps of the 11 - 29 Campy cassette unless you're going uphill where the speed is slower and you want the slightly bigger jumps between gears. I could maybe see how that cassette becomes a problem if you're riding a chainring that's too big for you so that your legs can't cash the checks your ego is writing so that you're constantly on the upper end of the cassette even on flat ground.

I agree with this view. I much prefer the ratios of my 11-28 11s Red cassette to the 11-25, as the ratios towards the low end have slightly bigger jumps and I end up shifting less to the low ratio I want. This is with 52/36 chainrings.

I was surprised by this and am very happy with my 11-28 11s.

[tomato]

deleted

[synchronicity]

That's all well and good, and I understand that technology marches on, "progress" and all that. I used to totally embrace new tech when I was in my twenties, I was the first to jump on board anything "new", I swear I did, but not anymore. Now I only really care about new advanced materials.

Anyway {I think} there should always be the choice (of both close ratio cassettes and humongous gappy dinner-plate-sized cassettes). More choice is good isn't it? Ideally it should remain. But it never does (for long), because now they are phasing out all the close-ratio stuff in 12+ speeds. 21T? Gone. 23T? Gone. 25T? Gone. 27T? Gone.

Why is that exactly? Flat terrain still exists, it hasn't changed! But it's not just flat terrain. Even for climbs, if I'm doing a 2+ hour climb on an average 5% gradient, I want the gears to be close together in the upper part of the cassette, rather than stuck in one gear the whole time. Because pace and rythm changes a bit on a ride that long. Otherwise it gets monotonous (for me).

That's why people such as myself are kinda getting pissed with brands today. I used to be a loyal unquestioning customer... so it's like I feel like I've been forgotten, left behind. I feel a bit like one of those abandonded bees you see on a beach, left the hive for good, unwanted, ostracised. (I should probably start a hashtag on instagram like #savethefrontderailleur)

I am trying 2x12 speed on one road bike, but I'm definitely going to stick with 11 speed on my other road bike.
Bringing it back on topic slightly, I'm more regretting 12 speed because it is fussier, fiddlier to set up and adjust, heavier.
I'm not going to 1x12, no way! Maybe 1x14 or 1x15 one day? But only if I get my close ratio cassettes back thank you very much!

Digression:
FWIW, my hybrid bike is 3x9. My MTB is still 3x9. Downhill is 1x9. I am thinking about building up a vintage mtb into a 1x drivetrain. Just as a run about bike, not intended for serious rides/climbing. But again, it won't be 12 speed. Too expensive to keep updating a fleet of bikes with more speeds every single iteration. That's easily 10G worth of bikes, totally superceded. Of course I'm somewhat grumpy because all those bikes have 26" wheels too; once it was the overwhelming majority standard, and now it's in the minority! I wouldn't mind so much but when a new wheel standard was introduced into the road market, 650c, it's now virtually obsolete. Try getting hold of a good 650c clincher/tubular. It's becoming harder and harder.


So I put the question back to you: why do you want to run a 1x12 drivetrain on your new bike? What are the benefits? 'Cause you're not getting more gear combinations, you're getting less.

[bedampft]

If you're only doing one sort of riding, in the same area/terrain, than I'd think 1x will be okish. But as soon as you're riding in the flats as well as mountains, especially in one ride, you are somewhat screwed. Even more so if you're riding with other people, whom have another fitness level as well.

When living in a "target rich" environment 1x isn't a good option.
In my usual area, lets say 60km around my hometown, we got >12 climbs up to more 1000m altitude, >30 betweeen 500m to 1000m altitude alone. We have mellow passes (<10%) on wide roads, to very small, technical and steep uphills (>10%, usually >14%), and flat terrain to go fast with lots of (head)wind. So I need every bit of my 52/36 x 11-32 when tackling my favourite 17% climbs and bombing down shallow downhills with >60kph while training. And when not riding alone, but with friends I'm using diffrent gears again. Even got a friend who's still riding 3x10 and very happy with it.

And come on: changing rings on a 1x before every ride is just not practical.

[Lina]

Anyway {I think} there should always be the choice (of both close ratio cassettes and humongous gappy dinner-plate-sized cassettes). More choice is good isn't it? Ideally it should remain. But it never does (for long), because now they are phasing out all the close-ratio stuff in 12+ speeds. 21T? Gone. 23T? Gone. 25T? Gone. 27T? Gone.

Why is that exactly? Flat terrain still exists, it hasn't changed! But it's not just flat terrain. Even for climbs, if I'm doing a 2+ hour climb on an average 5% gradient, I want the gears to be close together in the upper part of the cassette, rather than stuck in one gear the whole time. Because pace and rythm changes a bit on a ride that long. Otherwise it gets monotonous (for me).

That's why people such as myself are kinda getting pissed with brands today. I used to be a loyal unquestioning customer... so it's like I feel like I've been forgotten, left behind. I feel a bit like one of those abandonded bees you see on a beach, left the hive for good, unwanted, ostracised. (I should probably start a hashtag on instagram like #savethefrontderailleur)

Because 12 speed corn cobs are useless. Let's see some real comparisons about the tightest 11 and 12 speed Campy cassettes (11 - 23 and 11 - 29). The differences between them are pretty much as follows: as you go from 11 to 12 speed you trade 18t to 26t and add 29t on top. So you're essentially changing two 6% jumps in the 17t to 19t gap to one 12% jump and adding two more gears on top of the 23t so that you'll never need another cassette unless you're climbing super steep and long climbs. If you're using the 18t when riding fast on flat ground you're either going against hellish head wind or your chainrings are way too big for you. And I don't know anyone that has such a preference for one specific cadence that they can't tolerate 12% jumps when they're just plodding along at zone 2.

So you're a flatlander and don't need the range, then yes staying on 11 speed may be better as you don't need the extra range and you'll save some weight. No one is telling you to move to 12 speed because more gears is always better. On flat terrain you could get away with 10 or 9 speed just as well. But complaining how the 12 speed cassette offerings are worse shows a critical lack of understanding how gear ratios work. As you go up higher on the cassette one tooth jumps become smaller and smaller in gear ratio. That's why the jumps higher on the cassette are larger.

11 - 23t 12 speed cassette would be worse than a 11 speed version of the same cassette. You'd have 5% jumps between 19t and 21t. That's something you'd almost always skip over because when your cadence drops or goes up enough that you wish to change gears 5% isn't enough most of the time. I could see someone crying for an 11 - 25t 12 speed corn cob. But then what's the point of that? What terrain are you riding if you specifically want/need that type of a cassette? The range it offers is still quite small so you'd need something with tons of really shallow climbs for that to be ideal. Then as a manufacturer you take a look at the 18t and think real hard do you really need those 6% jumps at that part of the cassette and how often do you just skip over a gear in that region. Decide it's not really necessary, take off the 18t, adjust the 25t to 26t, and add the extra cog as 29t, and you've got a 11 - 29t cassette that works everywhere. 11 - 25t 12 speed cassette wouldn't sell to anyone else but people that absolutely need a corn cob because it looks cool. The market share would be so small that it makes no sense for anyone to make one.

[customtune]

I didn’t notice the gap’s feeling by significantly different on wider range cassette, like you said they convert pretty close on a roll out.
What I do notice: The wear of 1x is higher, and a bit annoying having to run flat top chain and have a different chain wear checker. Things that play on my mind but you don’t feel are the 1 third more friction for the 10t vs 11t in chain articulation, plus the ?watts drag of cross chaining more 1x.

[LanceLegstrong]

Speaking to the original question, I will say that I regretted it, albeit I went 1x11 and it was my gravel bike, though most of my gravel rides have a good bit of road. I had 2x10 (Checkpoint ALR) and wanted to upgrade to 11-speed, and 1x were gaining a lot of popularity, so I tried it. Not a fan at all. Yea, it simplified things some, but it wasn't comfortable. I went 40t x 11-36t, then eventually 11-40t, and both weren't great. The 11-40t had more range but even worse jumps. I have since returned to 2x11 and wouldn't go back to 1x for road or gravel. The only thing that would do it for me for road would be if I lived in a really flat region, but I have to many hills and variation that I shift a fair bit, and 1x just doesn't suit me.

My MTB and CX bike are 1x, but for road or gravel, 2x it will always be.

[dolophonic]

When living in a "target rich" environment 1x isn't a good option.
In my usual area, lets say 60km around my hometown, we got >12 climbs up to more 1000m altitude, >30 betweeen 500m to 1000m altitude alone. We have mellow passes (<10%) on wide roads, to very small, technical and steep uphills (>10%, usually >14%), and flat terrain to go fast with lots of (head)wind. So I need every bit of my 52/36 x 11-32 when tackling my favourite 17% climbs and bombing down shallow downhills with >60kph while training. And when not riding alone, but with friends I'm using diffrent gears again. Even got a friend who's still riding 3x10 and very happy with it.

And come on: changing rings on a 1x before every ride is just not practical.

where do you live ? sounds great !!!!!!!

[GS100]

Because 12 speed corn cobs are useless. Let's see some real comparisons about the tightest 11 and 12 speed Campy cassettes (11 - 23 and 11 - 29). The differences between them are pretty much as follows: as you go from 11 to 12 speed you trade 18t to 26t and add 29t on top. So you're essentially changing two 6% jumps in the 17t to 19t gap to one 12% jump and adding two more gears on top of the 23t so that you'll never need another cassette unless you're climbing super steep and long climbs. If you're using the 18t when riding fast on flat ground you're either going against hellish head wind or your chainrings are way too big for you. And I don't know anyone that has such a preference for one specific cadence that they can't tolerate 12% jumps when they're just plodding along at zone 2.

So you're a flatlander and don't need the range, then yes staying on 11 speed may be better as you don't need the extra range and you'll save some weight. No one is telling you to move to 12 speed because more gears is always better. On flat terrain you could get away with 10 or 9 speed just as well. But complaining how the 12 speed cassette offerings are worse shows a critical lack of understanding how gear ratios work. As you go up higher on the cassette one tooth jumps become smaller and smaller in gear ratio. That's why the jumps higher on the cassette are larger.

11 - 23t 12 speed cassette would be worse than a 11 speed version of the same cassette. You'd have 5% jumps between 19t and 21t. That's something you'd almost always skip over because when your cadence drops or goes up enough that you wish to change gears 5% isn't enough most of the time. I could see someone crying for an 11 - 25t 12 speed corn cob. But then what's the point of that? What terrain are you riding if you specifically want/need that type of a cassette? The range it offers is still quite small so you'd need something with tons of really shallow climbs for that to be ideal. Then as a manufacturer you take a look at the 18t and think real hard do you really need those 6% jumps at that part of the cassette and how often do you just skip over a gear in that region. Decide it's not really necessary, take off the 18t, adjust the 25t to 26t, and add the extra cog as 29t, and you've got a 11 - 29t cassette that works everywhere. 11 - 25t 12 speed cassette wouldn't sell to anyone else but people that absolutely need a corn cob because it looks cool. The market share would be so small that it makes no sense for anyone to make one.

Sorry to continue the slightly O/T conversation, but I have to disagree with this. As a Campagnolo user the issue preventing me going 12s (apart from cost!) is lack of 12t starting sprocket plus 29t minimum. They all start with 11t! what a way to squander the advantage of 12s..

The closest 11s ratios are 11-23 and 12-25. Closest 12s is 11-29. I have an 11s wheel set up with 12-25 (shorter rides, or where no super steep climbs), and another with 12-27 plus a triplet 23-26-29 option to swap over when I need, as the rest of the cassette has the same gears.

53/12 or 52/12 are useful gears and if I needed more than that I'm certainly better off freewheeling. Not quite a flatlander; 55ft/mile is average here, but no mountains whatsoever.

[bikewithnoname]

I've recently moved to Paris. From what I've seen of the surrounding 100kms or so I think I could move to 1x12 very comfortably. It really does depend on your terrain and wattage

[usr]

And come on: changing rings on a 1x before every ride is just not practical.

I guess once you have "unlearned" the reflexes that make you just know when it's time to switch rings or when it's time to sit it out with a bit of crosschaining and/or cadence flexibility (or if you never
learned those reflexes), changing rings within a ride seems almost as impractical

To the 2x mind the rings and where to switch between them are just part of the landscape, but that certainly doesn't even remotely make any sense when taking a step back. Meanwhile, the grouch inside of me claims that he would miss that part of the landscape like he would the birds and the trees...

[gorkypl]

53/12 or 52/12 are useful gears and if I needed more than that I'm certainly better off freewheeling. Not quite a flatlander; 55ft/mile is average here, but no mountains whatsoever.

I know Chorus chainring is not as pretty as SR, but 52x12 is the same as 48x11, and having 48 front you can stay in the big ring much longer. It's not for everyone, but I have really became a big fan of subcompact rings.