Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

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Butcher
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by Butcher

Ferrari could make a cheaper car for the masses. Would that be considered selling a worse product and 'forcing' the poor to buy a bad product?

#1] These are bikes and not food. There is no forcing of anything. Heck, there is Shimano, Sram, and others to pick.
#2] If I have the money and want to buy a lighter/more refined product, why would a company not make that? Not enough of a market? That's a great excuse. Because they do not want the poor to feel they are getting shafted? That's a terrible reason. Most every product around makes a higher end model. It's not a bike thing. There is nothing wrong with that and I will never understand why people think that is a bad thing.

There are many reasons why I've purchased Campagnolo since I mowed lawns when I was a 12 year old to buy their products. I'm glad that I do not see their products on every bike I see. I see Shimano on most every bike I run across, it works for them and that is great. If costs are forcing someone to buy a different product/model, I suggest they work harder, save more, or find something that they can afford. That has always worked for me.

They could make one product and charge one price but that would be idiotic. I guess Mercedes should drop the AMG line, BMW their M-Sport, Specialized with their S-Works, I'm so glad they do not. I'm also happy that there is enough of a market that allow them to sell those products to people that can afford it.

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Bondurant
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by Bondurant

I think you've missed my point Butcher. I wouldn't argue with any of what you are saying.

I'm talking about capability within a product that has been purchased only being available for an extra fee.

It will be interesting to see if this happens.

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neeb
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by neeb

What' s interesting about this concept is the idea of rather than selling something lesser for less money, selling the same thing for less money but without the rights to use it fully. Is that actually different, or do we (or some people) just perceive it as different due to a particular moral or economic viewpoint?

It's a little like a commerical analogy of the trolley problem in moral philosophy (you know, the one where you either let three people die by not doing anything, or actively cause another single person to die by pulling the lever, saving the other three in the process). It's about whether it's the action or the practical consequences that count.

Bondurant
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by Bondurant

I would say perception

I'd find it galling but that might just be me.

Sammutd88
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by Sammutd88

Nickldn wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:39 pm
I could see a time where you'll be able to upgrade key specs on your groupset by paying an 'unlocking' fee directly to the manufacturer.

£150 - to reduce shift time from 50 to 25 milliseconds

£100 - use big big and small small combos

£200 - upgrade FD shifting to eliminate chain drops

I think something like this has already been done for PM activation by a manufacturer, so why not other electronic features?
Bar the first one, you're suggesting they sell a group set that's not fit for purpose in its standard form. Won't happen.

Butcher
Shop Owner
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by Butcher

Maybe I did miss the point but again, I still believe the best stuff costs more. Even if the best is the difference between titanium bolts and steel bolts. We can probably agree that the difference is weight only. I have a Athena EPS11 for my winter bike [which is still not built] and from my understanding, it shifts about the same with the only difference is from the weight and the electrical connectors. Some have said that the steel cage front derailleur is better than the carbon SR version.

I have a SR rim brake caliper. It has bearings vs bushings in a Chorus caliper. Should the Chorus caliper have bearings? I do not know but I would agree, no one could tell the difference but there are stupid people like me that will pay extra for the bearings. Most of the 'extras' on a SR groupset, I'm willing to say, nobody would notice a difference in a blind test.

No, I'm not recommending anyone to ride with a blindfold on.

rollinslow
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Location: New York

by rollinslow

Anyone hear anything? It seems logical that Ekar electronic should be imminent and there also should be some type of leaks for next gen super record right? Partial wireless Shimano and wireless SRAM are making EPS look very dated.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Super Record 12
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523

usr
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by usr

rollinslow wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:02 am
Anyone hear anything? It seems logical that Ekar electronic should be imminent and there also should be some type of leaks for next gen super record right? Partial wireless Shimano and wireless SRAM are making EPS look very dated.
Electronic SR exists because sponsored pros would have revolted if they had to return to mechanical for 12s (I love mechanical, but if I was racing for my livelihood I'd certainly insist on motor shifting). That pressure does not exist for Ekar. In the 11s age they used to have EPS all the way down to Athena, but now it's SR only. Surely they will have to return to offer motor shifting on a wider range because there are hardly any frames left that support mechanical, but that pressure is much stronger for the road groups than for Ekar: many gravel bikes (not all but many) are almost the antithesis of the zero visible cables/housings/hoses principle that defines current generation road. I'd expect Ekar to go electric not before Chorus, perhaps after Centaur. And I suspect (dreading more than hoping) that the current generation mechanical will be the last generation mechanical, at least above the price range currently known as Centaur.

RDY
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by RDY

Ekar should go electronic wireless before anything else. It's what there's demand for.

Singular
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by Singular

usr wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:51 am
rollinslow wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:02 am
Anyone hear anything? It seems logical that Ekar electronic should be imminent and there also should be some type of leaks for next gen super record right? Partial wireless Shimano and wireless SRAM are making EPS look very dated.
Electronic SR exists because sponsored pros would have revolted if they had to return to mechanical for 12s (I love mechanical, but if I was racing for my livelihood I'd certainly insist on motor shifting). That pressure does not exist for Ekar. In the 11s age they used to have EPS all the way down to Athena, but now it's SR only. Surely they will have to return to offer motor shifting on a wider range because there are hardly any frames left that support mechanical, but that pressure is much stronger for the road groups than for Ekar: many gravel bikes (not all but many) are almost the antithesis of the zero visible cables/housings/hoses principle that defines current generation road. I'd expect Ekar to go electric not before Chorus, perhaps after Centaur. And I suspect (dreading more than hoping) that the current generation mechanical will be the last generation mechanical, at least above the price range currently known as Centaur.
That said, Campag is still an outlier in the market - very much an enthusiast (with virtually zero OEM prescence) brand that is not really for the same sort of customer that Shimano and SRAM are hustling for. I imagine that the Campagnolo customer is in general a very much more mechanical shifting / tubular tyres / rim brake positive bunch than the market in general (overlapping stick-shift, vinyl and mechanical watches) with a lot of romanticising.

Yep, one for pretentious nerds...like me. :D

Lina
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by Lina

RDY wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:13 am
Ekar should go electronic wireless before anything else. It's what there's demand for.
Is there?

usr
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

Singular wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:26 am
That said, Campag is still an outlier in the market - very much an enthusiast (with virtually zero OEM prescence) brand that is not really for the same sort of customer that Shimano and SRAM are hustling for. I imagine that the Campagnolo customer is in general a very much more mechanical shifting / tubular tyres / rim brake positive bunch than the market in general (overlapping stick-shift, vinyl and mechanical watches) with a lot of romanticising.
Yeah, that's why they relegated EPS to the pro (+ the occasional dentist) niche when motor shifting unexpectedly failed to completely take over cycling back in the ten years. But hydraulic brakes have changed that, the ease of hiding hoses and electrics (or wireless) has caused a tipover point. Campagnolo's shifting component business would shrink to Ingrid levels if they can't sell to anybody but the buyers of custom made frames when hardly any others in the high end support mechanical cables.

And people don't tend to switch to Campagnolo just because they are so deeply enthusiastic about bikes, they keep taking Campagnolo if they are deeply enthusiastic and have been on Campag before. The fortysomethings of 2030 won't ride more Campagnolo than the thirtysomethings of 2020. They can't just stick to the conservative crowd longer than a few years and Ekar is a nice, surprising example of them not doing: Ekar very much isn't sticking to the conservative crowd, even when it's only mechanical.

Btw, the current state of Ekar only mechanical might very well mean that they'd rather make their next generation motor shifting a radical jump, in their flagship lines, instead of introducing some incremental "EPS 2.5" in the gravel line that would soon seem more outdated than mechanical when road has an entirely new generation of motor shifting (that's not even called EPS anymore, according to rumors) and Ekar is still on that "EPS 2.5".

(edit: make the words less confused, hopefully)
Last edited by usr on Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Singular
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

usr wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:51 pm
Singular wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:26 am
That said, Campag is still an outlier in the market - very much an enthusiast (with virtually zero OEM prescence) brand that is not really for the same sort of customer that Shimano and SRAM are hustling for. I imagine that the Campagnolo customer is in general a very much more mechanical shifting / tubular tyres / rim brake positive bunch than the market in general (overlapping stick-shift, vinyl and mechanical watches) with a lot of romanticising.
Yeah, that's why they relegated EPS to the pro (+ the occasional dentist) niche when motor shifting unexpectedly failed to completely take over cycling back in the ten years. But hydraulic brakes have changed that, the ease of hiding hoses and electrics (or wireless) has caused a tipover point. Their shifting component business would shrink to Ingrid levels if they can't sell to anybody but to buyers of custom made frames when hardly any others in the high end support mechanical cables.

And people don't tend to switch to Campagnolo just because theyare so deeply enthusiastic about bikes, they keep taking Campagnolo of they are deeply enthusiastic and have been on Campag before. The fortysomethings of 2030 won't ride more Campagnolo than the thirtysomethings of 2020. They can't just stick to the conservative crowd longer than a free years and Ekar is a nice, surprising example of them not doing, even when it's only mechanical.

Btw, the current state of Ekar only mechanical might very well mean that they'd rather make their next generation motor shifting a radical jump, in their flagship lines, instead of introducing some incremental "EPS 2.5" in the gravel line that would soon seem more outdated than mechanical when road has an entirely new generation of motor shifting (that's not even called EPS anymore, according to rumors) and Ekar is still on that "EPS 2.5".
Correct - I do not expect an Ekar group with the current generation of EPS, but would be very surprised if it was not offered with the rumoured next non-"EPS" EPS.

ghostinthemachine
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 9:18 pm

by ghostinthemachine

Nickldn wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:39 pm
I could see a time where you'll be able to upgrade key specs on your groupset by paying an 'unlocking' fee directly to the manufacturer.

£150 - to reduce shift time from 50 to 25 milliseconds

£100 - use big big and small small combos

£200 - upgrade FD shifting to eliminate chain drops

I think something like this has already been done for PM activation by a manufacturer, so why not other electronic features?
It's been happening in the automotive and home computing world for years. Physically identical engines with three or four OE calibrations to give it progressively increasing power and torque. Auto transmissions with slower shift times and intrinsically different functionality on lower powered engines.
That 5000 euros extra for the "better drivetrain" is actually to cover 20€ of shiny chrome badges, some wheels and tires that might cost the manufacturer an extra 300€ and a different software.
They do the same with infotainment as well. Deactivate features you haven't paid for.
Home computing did it as well (don't know how prevalent it is now) but CPU, HDD and GPUs have all been throttled by software/retail cost of purchase in the past.

The electronics across each manufacturers range is common, they can't afford for it not to be. So it's not beyond wit of man (or the marketing team) to restrict more than just the weight and finish between groupsets.
Last edited by ghostinthemachine on Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Miller
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by Miller

Singular wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:26 am
I imagine that the Campagnolo customer is in general a very much more mechanical shifting / tubular tyres / rim brake positive bunch than the market in general (overlapping stick-shift, vinyl and mechanical watches) with a lot of romanticising.
I run Campag across three bikes. I love EPS, and disc brakes, and tubeless. Sold my vinyl records years ago, got quite good money for some of them. Also love mirrorless cameras (funny thing is in the photo world there's a tension between people still wedded to flappy-mirror DSLRs, who are resentful as they see their beloved tech receding in the market, and adopters of mirrorless cameras that can do video as well as stills. If that reminds you of anything...)
Last edited by Miller on Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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