Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

[velocipedeimp]

So because they weren't selling cheaper electronic groupsets a decade ago is the reason why it wouldn't sell now? And no, just because you can still find outdated groupsets online doesn't mean that a current offering wouldn't sell.

Yes, there are still frames that work with mechanical. But the number is constantly smaller. And it's going to become a lot smaller when Di2 105 is released. There were also tons of rim brake options two years ago. Look at where we are now, yeah they aren't completely gone but your choice is severely limited. The same will happen to mechanical shifting. If Shimano and SRAM leave the mechanical medium to high level groupset market it means that market is practically dead within couple of years. It doesn't mean Campy comes swooping in and collecting all that market. 105 and Chorus aren't even in the same market to begin with.

Yes, they offered a lower price groupset, and it didn't sell. They sold more Super Record 11 EPS groups than Athena, Chorus and Record COMBINED. Why would they bring a lower priced group knowing where their market is? That's foulish. Their electric market is Super Record. They are comfortable with that.

As for Chorus and 105 markets, correct, Chorus is Ultegra level kit. Centaur would be 105 level. And they make both. Do they hve OE on both, no. And that's on the bike manufacturers side of things. They are perfectly fine having Super Record and Ekar be the OE options, which they are on many brands right now. Campy is not all things to all people, they don't need or want to be. They are fine with their little corner of the bike world.

[Lina]

So because they weren't selling cheaper electronic groupsets a decade ago is the reason why it wouldn't sell now? And no, just because you can still find outdated groupsets online doesn't mean that a current offering wouldn't sell.

Yes, there are still frames that work with mechanical. But the number is constantly smaller. And it's going to become a lot smaller when Di2 105 is released. There were also tons of rim brake options two years ago. Look at where we are now, yeah they aren't completely gone but your choice is severely limited. The same will happen to mechanical shifting. If Shimano and SRAM leave the mechanical medium to high level groupset market it means that market is practically dead within couple of years. It doesn't mean Campy comes swooping in and collecting all that market. 105 and Chorus aren't even in the same market to begin with.

Yes, they offered a lower price groupset, and it didn't sell. They sold more Super Record 11 EPS groups than Athena, Chorus and Record COMBINED. Why would they bring a lower priced group knowing where their market is? That's foulish. Their electric market is Super Record. They are comfortable with that.

As for Chorus and 105 markets, correct, Chorus is Ultegra level kit. Centaur would be 105 level. And they make both. Do they hve OE on both, no. And that's on the bike manufacturers side of things. They are perfectly fine having Super Record and Ekar be the OE options, which they are on many brands right now. Campy is not all things to all people, they don't need or want to be. They are fine with their little corner of the bike world.

During a time when electronic groupsets were only on the most expensive bikes and were quite rare. It's not the same market as it was when they released 11 speed EPS. Back then power meters were also extremely rare and now they're sold on complete bikes because people demand them. Markets shift constantly. Just because something didn't sell 10 years ago doesn't mean it won't sell now. And neither does that 10 year old product still sitting on shelves.

It's fine having your own corner of the bike world. But the reality is that corner is getting smaller in the coming years unless they release cheaper electronic groupsets simply for the reason that mechanical frames stop being easily available in the price range they're targeting. It won't help having cornered the entire mid to high level mechanical market if that entire market is a couple hundred groupsets a year.

[velocipedeimp]

So because they weren't selling cheaper electronic groupsets a decade ago is the reason why it wouldn't sell now? And no, just because you can still find outdated groupsets online doesn't mean that a current offering wouldn't sell.

Yes, there are still frames that work with mechanical. But the number is constantly smaller. And it's going to become a lot smaller when Di2 105 is released. There were also tons of rim brake options two years ago. Look at where we are now, yeah they aren't completely gone but your choice is severely limited. The same will happen to mechanical shifting. If Shimano and SRAM leave the mechanical medium to high level groupset market it means that market is practically dead within couple of years. It doesn't mean Campy comes swooping in and collecting all that market. 105 and Chorus aren't even in the same market to begin with.

Yes, they offered a lower price groupset, and it didn't sell. They sold more Super Record 11 EPS groups than Athena, Chorus and Record COMBINED. Why would they bring a lower priced group knowing where their market is? That's foulish. Their electric market is Super Record. They are comfortable with that.

As for Chorus and 105 markets, correct, Chorus is Ultegra level kit. Centaur would be 105 level. And they make both. Do they hve OE on both, no. And that's on the bike manufacturers side of things. They are perfectly fine having Super Record and Ekar be the OE options, which they are on many brands right now. Campy is not all things to all people, they don't need or want to be. They are fine with their little corner of the bike world.

During a time when electronic groupsets were only on the most expensive bikes and were quite rare. It's not the same market as it was when they released 11 speed EPS. Back then power meters were also extremely rare and now they're sold on complete bikes because people demand them. Markets shift constantly. Just because something didn't sell 10 years ago doesn't mean it won't sell now. And neither does that 10 year old product still sitting on shelves.

It's fine having your own corner of the bike world. But the reality is that corner is getting smaller in the coming years unless they release cheaper electronic groupsets simply for the reason that mechanical frames stop being easily available in the price range they're targeting. It won't help having cornered the entire mid to high level mechanical market if that entire market is a couple hundred groupsets a year.

You do realize that Athena, Chorus and Record 11 EPS was current as of 2019, right? Super Record 12 came out in February 2019. They didn't discontinue A/C/R 11 EPS till 2020. So not even 3 years ago.

[blaugrana]

The problem is that if you abandon the racing bicycle market on anything but 15.000€/$ builds, it's very easy to stop being perceived as an innovative brand at the cutting edge of cycling tech. There is a difference between not offering low end groupsets and not being able to equip even a 10.000€ bike because that's too low a price point for you. Ekar was a nice move because they offer a high end but not absurdly priced groupset that works well and is a great option for performance gravel bikes. With almost every brand opting for fully integrated cables, doing the same for road bikes simply means going electronic, that's just how things are.

Sure, the custom frame market is a niche that they can still mantain a presence on with mechanical groupsets, but it's quite likely that this will still shift more and more towards electronic in the next few years. There's lots of people putting Sram AXS on extremely expensive custom builds lately, for example.

[usr]

You do realize that Athena, Chorus and Record 11 EPS was current as of 2019, right? Super Record 12 came out in February 2019. They didn't discontinue A/C/R 11 EPS till 2020. So not even 3 years ago.

Athena EPS was already dropped in 2015. And yes, an Athena offered for a price somewhere between mechanical Record and mechanical Super Record won't sell, no surprise there.

[Butcher]

Campagnolo has always been a high priced company. It's hard to sell the low price stuff when your clients are usually well off. If they can get their name out to the lower end buyer, maybe they could sell cheaper products.

I would say if you asked a cyclist what they thought about Campagnolo, I bet expensive would be one of their comments. Just like VW trying to tap into the expensive car market with their Phaeton, sometimes no matter what you make, it will not sell. Better to take a slower/different approach. Just because you make it does not mean people will buy it. I think Campagnolo has enough products that did not sell to prove that to them.

[raggedtrousers]

There's an interesting bifurcation at play here, where essentially 1 of 2 things will happen.

It seems likely that SRAM and Shimano will abandon mechanical entirely at mid level and above. If Campag stick where they are,that will leave them as the only company offering products in that segment.

In that situation, either mechanical will become a very niche product, and Campag will shrink/struggle, or alternatively there will be enough people who still want mechanical to make them more or less dominant in that area, and they will grow.

It seems they are betting on the latter.

Personally, I remain confused by the company's logic around sub-SR level electronic. The runaway success of Rival AXS should suggest that the market for electronic in 2022 is very different to the market even 3 years ago. The main obstacle for most people is simply cost; when SRAM made that less of an obstacle, the sales followed. Why Campag think they would be an exception to that trend, based on sales of different products in a different time period, is not clear to me.

I am sure they know their market, but 'we're fine because our stuff sells, why would we change?' has been a corporate epitaph before now.

[StiffWeenies]

Campag shot themselves in the foot by gimping Chorus EPS with V2 while Record and Super Record got V3, not to mention using different connectors for Athena and Chorus EPS to stop people from mixing parts across tiers

[keaton]

I really hope Campagnolo sticks with some high end mechanical groups, as well as have a rim brake option.

I honestly just don't think camparing sales numbers of v1/v2 athena/chorus/record eps is logical. In my opinion EPS was not intreiging/practical until v3. When athena and chorus eps was released it was not a compelling buy. Around the same timeframe all their mechanical groups were very similar, why I always rode a super record and chorus bike, what was the point of record back then? Now with better features, (+hopefully semi wireless) and the industry moving toward almost elclusive electronic, there is room for a more affordable electronic group. Im a super record customer, but honestly just don't see the need to have it on all my bikes. But at the end of the day, oh well, I will continue to buy whatever they sell.

As it has been brought up before, I don't think campagnolo is looking to grow in the way an american company thinks it must (hitting higher and higher sales numbers year after year.). That said, I think a brilliant marketing move would be to sign Pogacar in some way. The way specialized seems to sign individual riders like Sagan, why not create a partnership with an athlete and component brand (here comes all the comments about how this would never work lol). Pog is a once in a generation athlete, and seems to be a bit of a gear nerd, ie switching to rim on mtn stages, the custom cassette he used in his first TDF TT win ect. I think it could be a cool partnership.

[rollinslow]

I don't agree that Campy needs to compete purely on cost with Shimano and SRAM. Super record eps front derailleur says made in Switzerland on it. I like that, I'm willing to pay for it too for example. I think Campy mech is amazing as well. I just got back from riding my Ti rim brake SR12 bike with bora wheels. Incredible. Excited to see what Campy does next, hopefully not just jump on whatever the trend for this year is.

[BrianAllan]

This is all very interesting

I offer this question as a conundrum I feel like a lot of campy heads face. I'm curious if their upcoming product roadmap can support my desires:
I want a new bike for my big birthday where I start entering masters races . I like the Canyon Aeroad - def considering something with disc. I've been riding Centaur, Chorus and Record for 14 years. I even raced cyclocross with campy!

As a former Record 10 speed owner, one thing I dislike is the large hoods + reach of that early Shimano mechanical disc kit. If I want to ride campy on my next bike, and that bike is disc, do I go with Superecord disc EPS, or is the size of the mechanical shift/hydro disc hoods acceptable?

Or do I have a seperate Shimano "fast bike", and run a classic frame with some lovely Record 12 rim brake (and boras. def need some boras)?

[raggedtrousers]

This is all very interesting

I offer this question as a conundrum I feel like a lot of campy heads face. I'm curious if their upcoming product roadmap can support my desires:
I want a new bike for my big birthday where I start entering masters races . I like the Canyon Aeroad - def considering something with disc. I've been riding Centaur, Chorus and Record for 14 years. I even raced cyclocross with campy!

As a former Record 10 speed owner, one thing I dislike is the large hoods + reach of that early Shimano mechanical disc kit. If I want to ride campy on my next bike, and that bike is disc, do I go with Superecord disc EPS, or is the size of the mechanical shift/hydro disc hoods acceptable?

Or do I have a seperate Shimano "fast bike", and run a classic frame with some lovely Record 12 rim brake (and boras. def need some boras)?

I joined the masters ranks this year and - as soon as I get over a chest infection - will be doing my first races as an old man

Though budget is definitely a factor here, I only race what I can afford to write off. In my case, the road race bike is a Ridley Helium SLA, 12 speed Chorus (rim), and Roval CL50s. I am totally happy with it and can''t say enough good things about it, with the exception being the wet weather braking at real speed.

I'm also expecting delivery of the 'big birthday' bike in about 6 weeks! I am agonising between 12sp Di2 +Zipp 303FC and Record mechanical + Bora (both disc) and need to make a call very soon. The head says Shimano but the heart says Campag.

[rudye9mr]

This is all very interesting

I offer this question as a conundrum I feel like a lot of campy heads face. I'm curious if their upcoming product roadmap can support my desires:
I want a new bike for my big birthday where I start entering masters races . I like the Canyon Aeroad - def considering something with disc. I've been riding Centaur, Chorus and Record for 14 years. I even raced cyclocross with campy!

As a former Record 10 speed owner, one thing I dislike is the large hoods + reach of that early Shimano mechanical disc kit. If I want to ride campy on my next bike, and that bike is disc, do I go with Superecord disc EPS, or is the size of the mechanical shift/hydro disc hoods acceptable?

Or do I have a seperate Shimano "fast bike", and run a classic frame with some lovely Record 12 rim brake (and boras. def need some boras)?

EPS RD is pricey..

Spez Al frame/105 Di2 for race day

Sr EPS for less risky group rides / solo rides imo.

[ultimobici]

There has to be electronic outside of SR and pretty soon if they wish to sell anything but SR. If 105 Di2 comes it will mean most frames out there will not even support mechanical shifting after their next update. Or if they support it will be an afterthought and/or the cable runs will be awful, you can already see this happening. So they either need to bring electronic down the line or axe everything that isn't SR. The groupset market for custom frames that support mechanical shifting isn't large enough to justify keeping anything but SR available. And you won't be able to buy most of the frames that support mechanical shifting as a frameset.

Less thoughtful framesets, less time to design and less cost to produce, but sold more expensively. Absurd demand generation/shifting tricks. Kudos to the marketing dept of the involved parties.

Don't get me wrong. I like and use electronic shifting but I still see the value of mechanical shifting, and will build use it when I buy the next custom bike with rim brake. I just take aim at how the companies are shaping the demand.

People demand full internal routing. That means the mechanical shifting can't be as good and even if it's possible it means the cable runs are going to be awful to replace. So even if you could in theory make them with mechanical it's not a good idea. The working option is to have a downtube opening where you can install Di2 unit or mechanical grommets. But those are disappearing because everyone is mounting the Di2 units to handlebars. There will always be custom offering for rim brake and mechanical shifting. But that's just it. Custom and the market there is SR. Reality is that mechanical is dying on everything else but custom and cheapest you can find segments.

If there is Di2 105 mechanical is dead in the road bike market for most customers. That means it doesn't make any sense to spend money on coming up with mechanical routing to your frame.

The groupset market for custom frames that support mechanical shifting isn't large enough to justify keeping anything but SR available.

So true. The "electronic only sells on SR level" thing will completely invert: the occasional custom frame or Chromovelato special would happily go to SR level to get mechanical, but on lower levels mechanical is disappearing completely.

Exactly. There will be demand for mechanical SR for far longer than there is for Chorus or Record. Someone buying a custom frame with mechanical support is going to be most likely looking at SR.

There will always be plenty of options available for mechanical compatible frames, just as there will be for rim brakes. Campag sell plenty of Chorus & Ekar.

Just as the prediction that smartwatches would kill off mechanics watches was wrong, so is the prediction that electronic will kill off mechanical.

You're so wrong on all fronts. First of all bikes and watches are nothing alike. Watches are essentially jewelry. That means it doesn't matter if it's functionally inferior as long as it looks good and gives you prestige. Quartz watches are superior to mechanicals in pretty much every way possible but they didn't replace mechanicals exactly for the same reason as smart watches didn't. And anyone that claimed smart watches will kill mechanicals should be laughed at. Most people buy bikes to use them as sporting equipment. That means that functionality does matter. It's why STIs, carbon, and electronic shifting for example took over. If bikes were fashion accessories we'd all still be buying custom made steel with downtube shifters, rim brakes, and mechanical shifting. And there's a market for that segment also. But it's extremely niche, and SR mechanical is for that market.

They may still sell plenty of Chorus but what about in couple of years when large majority of the frames that are available as framesets no longer support mechanical shifting. Once Di2 105 is reality most manufacturers don't have to worry about mechanical shifting at all in their road bike line up save for some aluminium models that are sold with below 105 components. If they don't plan on selling any full bikes with mechanical shifting why the hell would they spend time and money on designing a frame that can use mechanical shifting?

5 years ago people would've called you crazy for saying you'd be hard pressed to find new frames that take rim brakes or don't have fully internal cable routing. How much are you willing to bet the same doesn't happen to mechanical shifting? Especially when the process is already underway and many of the current top tier frames are electronic only.

I should have been clearer that I was talking about smartwatches supplanting conventional watches.

As for struggling to find frames that have external cabling and rim brakes, there will still be plenty of options for many many years to come. Sram, Campag & Shimano all still offer rim brake options on all their top end groups. Customers are not all demanding fully concealed cables.

20 odd years ago the rumour was metal bikes were dead. That hasn’t come to pass on any way shape or form. If anything the options open to customers have broadened.

There are plenty of builders offering reasonably priced frames with conventional cabling & braking now, so unless you’re set on having a big name brand on the down tube, there isn’t any issue to be concerned about.


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[usr]

If I want to ride campy on my next bike, and that bike is disc, do I go with Superecord disc EPS, or is the size of the mechanical shift/hydro disc hoods acceptable?

I think it's the same? I'd be very tempted if they would use the opportunity of hydro+electronic to move the volumes required for hydro in the space previously occupied by ultrashift, but I stopped getting my hopes up. Plenty of people seem to actually *like* the "bigger than your bars" controls, unfortunately.