Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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Nickldn
Posts: 1165
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

Hexsense wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:19 pm
OnTheRivet wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:09 pm
upacs wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:53 pm
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:50 pm
A 13-speed like that is pretty well set for a 1x drivetrain. At 14-speed, it'd be stupid NOT to go 1x.
That's a pretty arrogant statement. Just because 1x14 would work fine for you, it doesn't mean it works fine for everyone.

I could happily ride a 1x14 (assuming no chainline issues), but I'd be even happier with a 2x13. And dear friend, I may not be the smartest cookie in the jar, but I'm most certainly not stupid.
1x14 would have EVERY gear you would have running 2x12 without the overlap.
true for 53/39 or Sram's narrow range front rings (50/37, 48/35, 46/33).

You need more for bigger range of 52/36 and 50/34.

Then even more for 46/30 or 44/28 (which I'm using on my gravel bike).
44/28 is 57% increase in gear ratio. The 44/28 with 11/30 have to be replaced with 44 front ring and 11-47
Or 40 front ring with 10-42.
In my head, I'd need 16 cogs in the back to smooth the jump of 44 front and 11-47t vs 44/28 with 11-30.

Also, on the imaginary 11-47 cassette, there is a cluster of 30-33-37-42-47 that each of them are all larger than the 28t small ring it replace.

Edit: Here, I even plot it out. Gear-calculator.com don't allow me to plot 16 cog cassette. So I draw 12-13-14 in paint.
Agree that I would need at least 15 cogs on x1 to replicate the range and close ratios of my Red 11s 11-28 cassette and 52/36 chainrings. 16 cogs would be better.

So if 16s is the bar for good road x1 and we are currently on 13s, I would guess we're at least 15 years away at the current rate of development.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Yoeleo H10 bars 7.5kg

DHG01
Posts: 597
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:14 pm
Location: Madrid

by DHG01

upacs wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:51 am

Funny word, "need". It doesn't have to make everything better, it only has to make one small thing better. And strickly speaking, you probably don't "need" gears at all... heck, you don't "need" a bike either.

Personally, I wouldn't mind 2x13 if it was available. Why? I currently run 11sp 11-29 with a 34-50 compact crankset. The 50/11 can sometimes not be enough on a good descent (granted, not very often), the 34/29 is very very often not low enough for the crazy climbs here, and there is at least one jump in the casette that I find a bit annoying (wasn't so problematic on the 12-29 I had before, but 50/12 was definitely not high enough).

So I will take an 11-32 casette with 13 cogs. Will solve the most important issues I have. As for the 50/11 not being high enough... well, guess I can live with that, doesn't bother me sooooo much. Or do as a buddy did, and change rings to 34-52. He swears it works just fine, but I've never tried it.

It all depends on the terrain you ride. I live in Switzerland... take one turn and you'll find yourself going up a 2000m vertical alpine climb with 25% ramps, then come down the other side doing 90kph on tyres thinner than my thumb and a bike that weighs less than a dog's turd. Isn't it fun :D

Bring on 2x13 I say!
I think the 2x13 might also be useful for the newer types of bikes that are meant to cover road and gravel; needing ample ranges but with still significant jumps today.

by Weenie


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DHG01
Posts: 597
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:14 pm
Location: Madrid

by DHG01

RDY wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:03 pm
As stated many, many times, the patents that Shimano,SRAM and Campag register, for the most part, are to keep copycat / clone new entrants from entering the market, not to restrict each other. They're very happy with the oligopoly, and won't fight each other.

But with the advent of wireless and electronic shifting, FSA slowly entering the market, massive demand, and huge price inflation, others inevitably will be drawn to the gruppo market. Rotor, Ingrid and Box are all niche players, but there will be others, and I'd be surprised if Rotor and Box's next major refresh or generation isn't electronic.
I think Rotor will struggle with lack of returns on Uno and 1x13.

tomato
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

AJS914 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:10 pm
I just switched to 52/36 and an 11-32 on 11 speed. I needed the 52x11 because 50x12 wasn't cutting it and I needed the 32. I was also getting tired of compact - I never loved riding around in a 50 almost all the time.
What's the problem with riding on the 50 tooth chain ring all the time?

Lina
Posts: 521
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

Hexsense wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:19 pm
OnTheRivet wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:09 pm
upacs wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:53 pm
aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:50 pm
A 13-speed like that is pretty well set for a 1x drivetrain. At 14-speed, it'd be stupid NOT to go 1x.
That's a pretty arrogant statement. Just because 1x14 would work fine for you, it doesn't mean it works fine for everyone.

I could happily ride a 1x14 (assuming no chainline issues), but I'd be even happier with a 2x13. And dear friend, I may not be the smartest cookie in the jar, but I'm most certainly not stupid.
1x14 would have EVERY gear you would have running 2x12 without the overlap.
true for 53/39 or Sram's narrow range front rings (50/37, 48/35, 46/33).

You need more for bigger range of 52/36 and 50/34.

Then even more for 46/30 or 44/28 (which I'm using on my gravel bike).
44/28 is 57% increase in gear ratio. The 44/28 with 11/30 have to be replaced with 44 front ring and 11-47
Or 40 front ring with 10-42.
In my head, I'd need 16 cogs in the back to smooth the jump of 44 front and 11-47t vs 44/28 with 11-30.

Also, on the imaginary 11-47 cassette, there is a cluster of 30-33-37-42-47 that each of them are all larger than the 28t small ring it replace.

Edit: Here, I even plot it out. Gear-calculator.com don't allow me to plot 16 cog cassette. So I draw 12-13-14 in paint.
Here's Ekar and 2x12 compact compared. Ekar with 9 - 36 and the 2x with 11 - 29 cassette. That's already pretty damn close in jumps. One more cog to that and I'd say there's no benefit from 2x in terms of range or gear jumps. Road 1x benefits a lot from starting at 9t or 10t as a smallest cog. Otherwise you end up with dinnerplates as both the chainring and the large end of the cassette. Going lower on the teeth count on the cassette lowers weight.
Screenshot 2021-04-14 222411.png

User avatar
neeb
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

barbaar wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:29 pm
EPS is an awesome product that in no way failed. Either it's the Campy pricing strategy that fails or they choose to position themselves in the upper market and go for exclusivity.
Could it be that it's just really expensive to manufacture, and so difficult to sell at price that's competitive?

I love EPS too (I also have 11sp) - it oozes quality and really robust engineering, but could it be that in introducing their first electronic group Campagnolo were determined to get it right and didn't cut enough corners to make a profitable product?

A bit like their previous/current generation top-end wheels, the Bora Ultras. The carbon weave on the rims and carbon hubs are just beautiful - no compromises. But they were eye-wateringly expensive. Much as I like the WTO too they are just not as classy. I've just taken advantage of the reduced prices on the remaining stock of Bora Ultra 35 rim brake tubulars. Might seem mad to spend that much money on relatively dated tech, but I will probably ride these until they fall apart, and 24.2mm width is fine for tubs.

Toby
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:30 am

by Toby

It's strange to me how much gearing choices get everyone's hackles up, despite how obviously-individual it is.

For example, my morning route is 38 miles and I do it in the 50 with an 11-30. I'd like bit lower for the nasty slog back to my house, but it's short enough to just muscle really quick. The gearing some people want (1:1 or greater) boggles my mind. I might change a bike to a 1x 46x11-34 and call it a day. Ekar would be an embarassment of riches, and I'd love it if I could get a chainring that would work with it on my Quarq. I'd love it even better with a 10-36 cassette.

Those living in the mountains instead of central Texas, or with dirt climbs, or whatever other situation, would probably find my proposed 46x34 crazy undergeared, but it'd be plenty for 95% of my riding.

FlatlandClimber
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

Why does this thread even exist in the first place?
It asks for rumors that don't exist...
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*all weights are race ready bikes, large frame size.
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User avatar
Miller
Posts: 2503
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:52 pm
Why does this thread even exist in the first place?
It asks for rumors that don't exist...
Have you by any chance glanced at the next gen di2 thread?

smokva
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:13 pm

by smokva

tomato wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:27 pm
AJS914 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:10 pm
I just switched to 52/36 and an 11-32 on 11 speed. I needed the 52x11 because 50x12 wasn't cutting it and I needed the 32. I was also getting tired of compact - I never loved riding around in a 50 almost all the time.
What's the problem with riding on the 50 tooth chain ring all the time?
Just my 2 cents...it really depends in what kind of shape you are. Once, long, long ago...I was slim, trained alot and in good shape...I used 53-39 and 11(or12?)-25 and on flats I had perfect chainline most of the time, being somewhere arround middle cogs. Now, 2 kids and 30 kilos later I ride 50-34 and 12-30 and my chainline is not perfect on flats, I tend to be slightly on the left side of cassete, meaning my chainline would be total wrong if I stayed on what I had before.
My opinion is that you should always use cobination of chainrings and cassetes which give you the best possible chainline most of the time...thats when everything works best and lasts longest.

Some of my friends say that they dont like compact because there is 16 tooth difference when going from big 50 to small 34 chainring, and that it is too much so they always have to shift few gears up on the rear...and that it is not the case with standard 53-39 where this difference is "only" 14. I must say I have never had similar feeling, and ususally these opinions came from the slowest riders in the buch who are biggest philosophers at the same time.

Anyway...I have tried everything standard 53-39, semi compact 52-36, compact 50-34 and I can ride them all and they all feel the same...the only difference is how straight my chain will be most of the time.

tomato
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

Lina wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:31 pm
Here's Ekar and 2x12 compact compared. Ekar with 9 - 36 and the 2x with 11 - 29 cassette. That's already pretty damn close in jumps.

Screenshot 2021-04-14 222411.png
Not really. The jumps in the 1x13 setup are roughly 50% bigger than the jumps in the 2x12 setup. Below 35kph/22mph (where a lot of time is spent) the difference is even bigger (66%).

tomato
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

smokva wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:53 pm
tomato wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:27 pm
AJS914 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:10 pm
I just switched to 52/36 and an 11-32 on 11 speed. I needed the 52x11 because 50x12 wasn't cutting it and I needed the 32. I was also getting tired of compact - I never loved riding around in a 50 almost all the time.
What's the problem with riding on the 50 tooth chain ring all the time?
Just my 2 cents...it really depends in what kind of shape you are. Once, long, long ago...I was slim, trained alot and in good shape...I used 53-39 and 11(or12?)-25 and on flats I had perfect chainline most of the time, being somewhere arround middle cogs. Now, 2 kids and 30 kilos later I ride 50-34 and 12-30 and my chainline is not perfect on flats, I tend to be slightly on the left side of cassete, meaning my chainline would be total wrong if I stayed on what I had before.
My opinion is that you should always use cobination of chainrings and cassetes which give you the best possible chainline most of the time...thats when everything works best and lasts longest.

Some of my friends say that they dont like compact because there is 16 tooth difference when going from big 50 to small 34 chainring, and that it is too much so they always have to shift few gears up on the rear...and that it is not the case with standard 53-39 where this difference is "only" 14. I must say I have never had similar feeling, and ususally these opinions came from the slowest riders in the buch who are biggest philosophers at the same time.

Anyway...I have tried everything standard 53-39, semi compact 52-36, compact 50-34 and I can ride them all and they all feel the same...the only difference is how straight my chain will be most of the time.
If you dislike riding on a 50 tooth chain ring because it puts the chain too far to the left on the cassette, then going to a 52 or 53 tooth chain ring will only make the situation worse, not better.

lanternrouge
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:47 pm

by lanternrouge

Renault78law wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:15 am
Dorpel wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:24 pm
I hope 12speed Chorus EPS comes one day.
I mentioned this in the other thread, wouldn't one expect EPS to trickle down to record and chorus before a new 13 speed groups it comes out? 12 speed is still new!
From what I heard, the reason Campagnolo is just doing electronic at the Super Record level is because that's what was selling.

AJS914
Posts: 4971
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

tomato wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:27 pm
What's the problem with riding on the 50 tooth chain ring all the time?
I just never bonded with it. I went from 53/39 to 50/34 and it just never felt right. You can't really use the 34 on the flats even for easy riding because you quickly end up cross chained like 34x14. So you go for the 50 and you end up cross chained the other way. I've settled on 52/36 with an 11-32 as the best all around option. If I lived in a flatter area I'd use 11-29.

by Weenie


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tomato
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

AJS914 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:47 pm
tomato wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:27 pm
What's the problem with riding on the 50 tooth chain ring all the time?
I just never bonded with it. I went from 53/39 to 50/34 and it just never felt right. You can't really use the 34 on the flats even for easy riding because you quickly end up cross chained like 34x14. So you go for the 50 and you end up cross chained the other way. I've settled on 52/36 with an 11-32 as the best all around option. If I lived in a flatter area I'd use 11-29.
We must have different definitions of cross chaining. If you're in the 34x14 combo, you're on the 4th smallest cassette sprocket. The closest gear (in gear inches) using the 50 tooth chain ring would put you on the 4th or 5th largest cassette sprocket. I wouldn't consider any of those combos to be cross chaining. In fact, you're pretty darned close to the center of the cassette in those combos.

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