Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

[FlatlandClimber]

So is there anything combing? What are these rumors based on?

[usr]

I can also believe the more speeds they have, cables will no longer be able to work that precisely. I'm surprised to see the Ekar working so well, especially in the environment that they are suppose to live in.

I feel the same, particularly after riding my 11s after a 9 month hiatus (injury and/or riding 12s instead) and it felt considerably better, seems like some of the initial "12s works awesome!" slowly disappeared over time, unnoticeable.

But on the other hand you should very well be able to keep both lever travel and cable travel per gear the same by just adding more steps on the lever and changing the movement multiplication factor on the derailleur to fit the great distance. Then the inaccuracy caused by cable properties should result in the same inaccuracy of the derailleur positioning as with less gear, not measured in fractions of a millimetre but in fractions of the step between gears.

But perhaps the cable isn't even the problem when mechanical approaches the limit but inaccuracy the parallelogram joints, flex and so on, and electronic can easily deal with that by allowing a wide tolerance zone, compensated by generous temporary overshifting?

[Nickldn]

I am lucky/fortunate to be able to ride and maintain 3 totally different groups on a regular basis:

SRAM Red Etap 11s - electronic
Shimano Ultegra 6800 11s - mechanical
Campy Chorus 12s - mechanical

I have recently got back on my SRAM group bike and find the shifting so effortless and intuitive with just 2 light action shift paddles to control FD and RD. The controls just get out of your way and let you ride. It's a breath of fresh air after several hundred miles of Chorus 12.

In contrast Campy Chorus 12s is hard work, yet it's also very rewarding for the great mechanical feel and sound. It just needs a bit more thought, effort and planning to always be in the right gear, especially when going for it. I don't notice the 12s, I guess it really comes into its own with a 11-32 cassette, which I don't have.

Ultegra 6800 is a bit different again. Less effort than Chorus due to a much lighter shifting action, but also more boring, without the raw mechanical feel of Campy. More effort than Red Etap of course. I find it dull, no engagement as it's too good. The current Shimano generation is even more perfect and less engaging. I would not touch it.

So for me the difference between mechanical and electronic is simple: if you ride for pleasure something like Chorus 12 is great, really engaging, satisfying and high quality. If you race, or compete electronic is effortless and lets you focus on being as fast as possible.

Anything in between (read Shimano mechanical) is a waste of time. That may be why SRAM has abandoned mechanical for road.

[Butcher]

I do not ride Sram or Shimano, but with your description, that's probably something I could agree with.

My SR11 EPS shifts great and you know the shift will be correct and you do not have to wonder what is going to happen. You want something, it it gives you what you want. If you did not get it, it's because you did not push the lever enough.

My first gen SR11 mechanic had issues but like most first gen products, the second gen addressed those. I paid for my first parts and I thought I should not pay for anything more because EPS was coming out.

Still waiting for my EPS12 after paying for it in January. No, I'm not mad, I've got the best LBS and I know they are doing their best. Remember, it's covid season.

[Alexandrumarian]

I am lucky/fortunate to be able to ride and maintain 3 totally different groups on a regular basis:

I wonder how red 11 compares to force 12. When i demoed it i thought the rear shifting is quite slow. Compared to my 11s campa bike it felt like i could stop for an espresso while the rear der was still moving a sprocket at a time. In contrast yes, the shifting system at the bars is probably as good as it could be without mind control )

[usr]

I wonder how red 11 compares to force 12. When i demoed it i thought the rear shifting is quite slow.

Reads like you had a Nostradamus moment: eventually, when motor shifting will be available in the whole price range, it will be a *massive* playground for artificial "sorry, pal, you didn't pay enough" restrictions. Buckle up to see the differences between Ultegra and 105, Chorus and Centaur, Force and Rival expressed in milliseconds instead of grams.

And I'd expect the entire range to be happily compatible: the high end derailleur will simply have a lookup table in the firmware instructing it how long to pout before acting on a command sent from a paired low end shifter and so on (whereas the lowest end derailleur can simply sleep a fixed amount of time no matter the price range of the shifter)

[neeb]

I wonder how red 11 compares to force 12. When i demoed it i thought the rear shifting is quite slow.

Reads like you had a Nostradamus moment: eventually, when motor shifting will be available in the whole price range, it will be a *massive* playground for artificial "sorry, pal, you didn't pay enough" restrictions. Buckle up to see the differences between Ultegra and 105, Chorus and Centaur, Force and Rival expressed in milliseconds instead of grams.

And I'd expect the entire range to be happily compatible: the high end derailleur will simply have a lookup table in the firmware instructing it how long to pout before acting on a command sent from a paired low end shifter and so on (whereas the lowest end derailleur can simply sleep a fixed amount of time no matter the price range of the shifter)

Maybe you would subscribe to a groupset rather than buy it outright.. I can see it now, a text message sent directly to your head unit in the middle of a race saying that you are being downgraded to Centaur with immediate effect because your credit card has expired..

Logos on the components would be rendered on mini LED screens and would change according to your current subscription level..

[Nickldn]

I could see a time where you'll be able to upgrade key specs on your groupset by paying an 'unlocking' fee directly to the manufacturer.

£150 - to reduce shift time from 50 to 25 milliseconds

£100 - use big big and small small combos

£200 - upgrade FD shifting to eliminate chain drops

I think something like this has already been done for PM activation by a manufacturer, so why not other electronic features?

[WorkonSunday]

I wonder how red 11 compares to force 12. When i demoed it i thought the rear shifting is quite slow.

Reads like you had a Nostradamus moment: eventually, when motor shifting will be available in the whole price range, it will be a *massive* playground for artificial "sorry, pal, you didn't pay enough" restrictions. Buckle up to see the differences between Ultegra and 105, Chorus and Centaur, Force and Rival expressed in milliseconds instead of grams.

And I'd expect the entire range to be happily compatible: the high end derailleur will simply have a lookup table in the firmware instructing it how long to pout before acting on a command sent from a paired low end shifter and so on (whereas the lowest end derailleur can simply sleep a fixed amount of time no matter the price range of the shifter)

Maybe you would subscribe to a groupset rather than buy it outright.. I can see it now, a text message sent directly to your head unit in the middle of a race saying that you are being downgraded to Centaur with immediate effect because your credit card has expired..

Logos on the components would be rendered on mini LED screens and would change according to your current subscription level..

lol. imagine you are in the middle of no where and has no reception but the "unlocks" expired based on internal clock.

anyway, after riding etap 11, force 12, SR 11, SR 11eps, SR12, DA di2..... i concluded i love 11 speed Centaur the best lol. (i did mix it with chorus 12 cranks and DA chain and cassette )

[DHG01]

Where does once purchase A Record Groupset right now in Europe? Seems stock is incredibly thin on the ground.

Nestor at NNK racing has stock and great deals on SR. Not sure about record though, worth asking.

Excellent recommendation; very good price, very worthwhile individual. Not the fastest to respond, but flexible (Groupset price excluding the brakes which I already had) and with good stock.

[Bobbyc123]

Where does once purchase A Record Groupset right now in Europe? Seems stock is incredibly thin on the ground.

Nestor at NNK racing has stock and great deals on SR. Not sure about record though, worth asking.

Excellent recommendation; very good price, very worthwhile individual. Not the fastest to respond, but flexible (Groupset price excluding the brakes which I already had) and with good stock.

glad it worked out for you!

[Bondurant]

I could see a time where you'll be able to upgrade key specs on your groupset by paying an 'unlocking' fee directly to the manufacturer.

£150 - to reduce shift time from 50 to 25 milliseconds

£100 - use big big and small small combos

£200 - upgrade FD shifting to eliminate chain drops

I think something like this has already been done for PM activation by a manufacturer, so why not other electronic features?

Not a chance. Which of the big groupset brands would like to be seen as elitist to this level? It's one thing for Campag to charge more for UltraShift, but quite another for poor people to be electronically limited (simply because they can't afford to pay for software to be less limiting i.e. not a real manufacturing cost).

Only happen if Rapha got into components manufacture.

[neeb]

Not a chance. Which of the big groupset brands would be like to seen as elitist to this level? It's one thing for Campag to charge more for UltraShift, but quite another for poor people to be electronically limited (simply because they can't afford to pay for software to be less limiting i.e. not a real manufacturing cost).

Only happen if Rapha got into components manufacture.

Hmm, don't bet on it! Give it a few years..

It's widely known that pricing structures in groupsets as well as products generally these days often have little to do with manufaturing costs and much more to do with "positioning" and what people are prepared to pay for... All it needs is a logical conceptual shift at the societal level for it to become acceptable. I'm not saying I approve, but if it's OK to charge 2.5 x as much for SR as for Chorus then you coud argue that this follows naturally from that..

[Bondurant]

I see what you're saying, but people pay more for SR's exotic materials etc. right now. The groupsets look different and are different.

I think there's a difference between that and differentiating against people that can't or won't pay by forcing worse performance on them even though the capability is inherently there.

But we will see, as you say.

[neeb]

I see what you're saying, but people pay more for SR's exotic materials etc. right now. The groupsets look different and are different.

I think there's a difference between that and differentiating against people that can't or won't pay by forcing worse performance on them even though the capability is inherently there.

But we will see, as you say.

You could argue however that because the extra cost of the exotic materials is probably a very small percentage of the total production costs, by manufacturing Chorus in the first place and positioning it in a much lower price bracket, Campagnolo are effectively forcing worse performance (heavier weight anyway) on people who can pay less. They could just make one groupset with the attributes of SR and sell it to everyone at just a little more than the current price of Chorus.

That wouldn't actually happen of course because Campagnolo need to sell products at high and low price brackets to be profitable, but the same would apply to electronically activated performance differences at different price levels.

I'm purely being a devil's advocate because it's an interesting concept..