Speed Wobble
Moderator: robbosmans
There are many possible explanations for wobbling, and some missconceptions in this thread.
First: Less weight on the front wheel does not necesarilly reduce or increase wobble....it all depends. Wobbling and resonancies always depend on two different factors. Mass and stiffness. Mass decreases, the resonance frequenicy increases, stiffness goes down, resonance frequency goes down as well.
For the engineers: Omega(zero) = Squareroot (Stiffness/mass)
Also it is not one Frequency, but for every single degree of freedom one frequency and there are at least so many different degrees of freedom that are relevant as components involved....so at least Wheels, Tires, Fork, Frame and Rider. Since it may be lateral movement, vertical movement and even rotational movement, the number of relevant stiffness/mass ratios may even be much higher.
Then there are different factors that contribute to dampening. Tire, Frame, Wheel(s), Fork and last but not least, rider.
What human "resonancies" and "dampeners" can cause knows every bridge builder. One reason, why platoons typically don't "march" over bridges, but walk normally.
Most famous example of the later history was the Millenium Bridge in London, which had to be closed shortly after opening and additional dampers had to be installed, since the pedestrians would naturally and without awareness amplify the natural vibration of the bridge, since it's Eigenfrequency met pretty much the natural human walking cycle.
Anyway. For Fruitflys findings are many sound theories possible.
Too much weight on the rear wheel might infact lead to a negative outcome, since the front get's "too light"
What you could also try, would be to alter the tire preasure slightly, but on a road bike the effect is probably not as big as with an MTB.
You probably can get your Domane to the same behaviour....you just have to got faster .
It is important to understand, that it is not the "fault" of a single piece or component, but it's always the combination of all components that contribute to the vibration. An imbalance of the tire or wheel can go unnoticed in one bike, and lead to a "catastrophic" behaviour in another bike.
And it is not necerssarily better to have a stiffer Frame/Wheel/Fork... If they all have similar resonance frequencies, that's most likely bad. If some parts are tuned at higher, other at lower frequencies, this might actually be better. Also, the higher the resonance frequency, the higher the amplification and most likely the lower the dampening.
Most of you probably drive cars. Ever noticed how a worn out wheel bearing behaves? And what happens if you go faster?
So, it could be, that the Frame in general lacks stiffness, but it could also be, that the combination of all circumstances leads to the unwanted behaviour. So moving the saddle to the front, might actually be helpful, but most likely it is "only" going the shift the behaviour to slightly higher frequencies/speeds. Might be all you need and is definitely worth a try. You could also check what happens if you don't sit while descending. If it is related to your center of gravity, this should really make a difference
I'd also take different tires and pressures into consideration, as those can be swapped quite easily.
Which were the three different wheelsets that you already tried? Are these perfectly true?
With my old bike, I would get wobbling around 70 kPh, Ridley Helium with Lightweight wheels...not necessarily a fragile combination. Now with the BMC and other Lightweight Wheels I can coast one handed while eating/drinking easily at the very same speed at the same descend.
Really hope you find a working solution, because in my opinion the Escapee is a great bike.
First: Less weight on the front wheel does not necesarilly reduce or increase wobble....it all depends. Wobbling and resonancies always depend on two different factors. Mass and stiffness. Mass decreases, the resonance frequenicy increases, stiffness goes down, resonance frequency goes down as well.
For the engineers: Omega(zero) = Squareroot (Stiffness/mass)
Also it is not one Frequency, but for every single degree of freedom one frequency and there are at least so many different degrees of freedom that are relevant as components involved....so at least Wheels, Tires, Fork, Frame and Rider. Since it may be lateral movement, vertical movement and even rotational movement, the number of relevant stiffness/mass ratios may even be much higher.
Then there are different factors that contribute to dampening. Tire, Frame, Wheel(s), Fork and last but not least, rider.
What human "resonancies" and "dampeners" can cause knows every bridge builder. One reason, why platoons typically don't "march" over bridges, but walk normally.
Most famous example of the later history was the Millenium Bridge in London, which had to be closed shortly after opening and additional dampers had to be installed, since the pedestrians would naturally and without awareness amplify the natural vibration of the bridge, since it's Eigenfrequency met pretty much the natural human walking cycle.
Anyway. For Fruitflys findings are many sound theories possible.
Too much weight on the rear wheel might infact lead to a negative outcome, since the front get's "too light"
What you could also try, would be to alter the tire preasure slightly, but on a road bike the effect is probably not as big as with an MTB.
You probably can get your Domane to the same behaviour....you just have to got faster .
It is important to understand, that it is not the "fault" of a single piece or component, but it's always the combination of all components that contribute to the vibration. An imbalance of the tire or wheel can go unnoticed in one bike, and lead to a "catastrophic" behaviour in another bike.
And it is not necerssarily better to have a stiffer Frame/Wheel/Fork... If they all have similar resonance frequencies, that's most likely bad. If some parts are tuned at higher, other at lower frequencies, this might actually be better. Also, the higher the resonance frequency, the higher the amplification and most likely the lower the dampening.
Most of you probably drive cars. Ever noticed how a worn out wheel bearing behaves? And what happens if you go faster?
So, it could be, that the Frame in general lacks stiffness, but it could also be, that the combination of all circumstances leads to the unwanted behaviour. So moving the saddle to the front, might actually be helpful, but most likely it is "only" going the shift the behaviour to slightly higher frequencies/speeds. Might be all you need and is definitely worth a try. You could also check what happens if you don't sit while descending. If it is related to your center of gravity, this should really make a difference
I'd also take different tires and pressures into consideration, as those can be swapped quite easily.
Which were the three different wheelsets that you already tried? Are these perfectly true?
With my old bike, I would get wobbling around 70 kPh, Ridley Helium with Lightweight wheels...not necessarily a fragile combination. Now with the BMC and other Lightweight Wheels I can coast one handed while eating/drinking easily at the very same speed at the same descend.
Really hope you find a working solution, because in my opinion the Escapee is a great bike.
Interested in buying Carbonsport Lightweight wheels with broken spokes.
BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team 2018|Ridley Helium | Kuota Kross|Cannondale Scalpel 29 Hi-Mod
BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team 2018|Ridley Helium | Kuota Kross|Cannondale Scalpel 29 Hi-Mod
I've only ever had speed wobble on road motorcycles thankfully. If I had speed wobble I would blame the manufacturer as I believe it is a design flaw because the dampening/flex of the frame is poorly designed, I would attempt to return the bike to my money refunded.However I doubt that manufacturer would accept they had a poor product so I would try different wheel/tire combos and hope it cured the problem such as going a bit wider with the tires and experimenting with pressures, such as running 10 psi less in the front than the rear. I might attempt to sell the bike, but would feel uncomfortable about selling a bike that is potentially dangerous so someone else. This is a reason why I prefer world tour proven bikes as you'd hope pro riders would find these issues and demand changes.
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I agree, It's very difficult to sepearate out what well meaning and (possibly) well respected idiots with large followings tell you to do *because it happened to work for them*, and that evidence that is based in the science and *should work in most cases*.
This applies to many subjects in all fields, not jsut cycling.
I honestly don't understand why road bikes have such aggressive front end geometry. I used to commute via fixed gear and the stability of the front end was awesome. I had no problem riding with my roadie buddies around Central/Prospect Park, but the front was so accommodating I eventually learned how to track stand with no hands. With road bikes I can't even take both hands off the bar.
Did you manage to get a refund for your motorcycle?Lewn777 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:22 pmI've only ever had speed wobble on road motorcycles thankfully. If I had speed wobble I would blame the manufacturer as I believe it is a design flaw because the dampening/flex of the frame is poorly designed, I would attempt to return the bike to my money refunded.However I doubt that manufacturer would accept they had a poor product so I would try different wheel/tire combos and hope it cured the problem such as going a bit wider with the tires and experimenting with pressures, such as running 10 psi less in the front than the rear. I might attempt to sell the bike, but would feel uncomfortable about selling a bike that is potentially dangerous so someone else. This is a reason why I prefer world tour proven bikes as you'd hope pro riders would find these issues and demand changes.
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What Jobst Brandt said about shimmy https://yarchive.net/bike/shimmy.html
Thanks for all the replies so far. I especially appreciated Lozaen's "just enough engineering" reply, and it fits with the history that I made a number of changes over time that changed the bike from "no wobble" to "frequent wobble". Since the bike started out with no wobble, I don't think there is an inherent problem in the design or frame. The obvious thing to do is just reverse all the changes! Nevertheless, I like to understand things, so I will go out on the road today and test a more forward saddle position, and descending out of the saddle and report back to see if there is a way I can keep the expensive new, lighter equipment, and the mid-foot cleat position rather than putting back the original stuff.
Agree with the poster that Tarmacs descend beautifully-my SL5 was confidence inspiring. Aging means I can't handle long and low frames anymore though. I regularly get the Domane up to 65km/h (fenders and all), and have only once got a hint of wobble on an exposed downhill next to the ocean with a fierce crosswind.
There is certainly something about rider confidence as well. I have gone from "best in club" to mediocre in about a week, and I am sure that the hesitancy increases the likelihood of "death grip" and freezing up.
Agree with the poster that Tarmacs descend beautifully-my SL5 was confidence inspiring. Aging means I can't handle long and low frames anymore though. I regularly get the Domane up to 65km/h (fenders and all), and have only once got a hint of wobble on an exposed downhill next to the ocean with a fierce crosswind.
There is certainly something about rider confidence as well. I have gone from "best in club" to mediocre in about a week, and I am sure that the hesitancy increases the likelihood of "death grip" and freezing up.
Factor Ostro
Something I've only had 30 years ago on an old steel bike - always assumed it didn't happen with modern, stiff carbon frames!
Even well designed motorcycles can speed wobble, (watch the Isle of man TT) but that's down to the fact that there's an engine in it. Cycles should never speed wobble. Having said that some of the earlier Kawasakis and Suzukis were known for it, such as the TL1000S https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-rev ... 000r/1998/tjvirden wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:50 pmDid you manage to get a refund for your motorcycle?Lewn777 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:22 pmI've only ever had speed wobble on road motorcycles thankfully. If I had speed wobble I would blame the manufacturer as I believe it is a design flaw because the dampening/flex of the frame is poorly designed, I would attempt to return the bike to my money refunded.However I doubt that manufacturer would accept they had a poor product so I would try different wheel/tire combos and hope it cured the problem such as going a bit wider with the tires and experimenting with pressures, such as running 10 psi less in the front than the rear. I might attempt to sell the bike, but would feel uncomfortable about selling a bike that is potentially dangerous so someone else. This is a reason why I prefer world tour proven bikes as you'd hope pro riders would find these issues and demand changes.
So I did the experiments. Short answer is that moving my saddle forward has made the bike rideable. Still light on the front perhaps, but if I concentrate on relaxing, it is fine. I didn't get around to desending out of the saddle, because I was comparing wheels at the same time. The improvement is wheel independent (35mm vs 55mm Lightbicycle (21 id, 28 od), Carbon-Ti hubs, bladed spokes, Goodyear F1 Supersport tires, 25c on front, 28c on rear 80 psi). Might lower front pressure to 70 for tomorrow's ride to see what that does.
The question will be whether moving the saddle that much works for my aging knees-it's great for reducing reach, and making aero much more comfortable, but I also wonder about too much weight on my hands now. Had to raise the saddle to accommodate what ended up being 3.5cm of movement forward. If all goes well, I will get a zero offset post so the saddle is more centred on the rails.
Next up is a detailed comparison of frame geometry to see why this issue hasn't arisen with my winter bike (Domane), and with the Tarmac
The question will be whether moving the saddle that much works for my aging knees-it's great for reducing reach, and making aero much more comfortable, but I also wonder about too much weight on my hands now. Had to raise the saddle to accommodate what ended up being 3.5cm of movement forward. If all goes well, I will get a zero offset post so the saddle is more centred on the rails.
Next up is a detailed comparison of frame geometry to see why this issue hasn't arisen with my winter bike (Domane), and with the Tarmac
Factor Ostro
I have a been fan of Marginal Gain's podcast and this discussion reminds me of this episode - https://marginalgainspodcast.cc/bifurca ... nal-gains/
I have a been fan of Marginal Gain's podcast and this discussion reminds me of this episode - https://marginalgainspodcast.cc/bifurca ... nal-gains/
I had a BMC with bad speed wobble and I changed every component on the frame, including groupset and that didn't cure it. I think some frames just aren't designed/tested properly at certain sizes, which you can't work around. I've subsequently got an Cervelo R3 and Supersix Evo HM and they are a delight to go downhill with no speed wobble. In future, if I get a frame with speed wobble, I'll just sell rather than try to fix it.
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Curious - are people having speed wobble with current carbon frames riding large sizes and/or large themselves?