2022 New Frame Rumours

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

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RDY
Posts: 2401
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

pmprego wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:59 am
maquisard wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:33 am
RDY wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:29 am
The Dacia probably has production costs around the €8-9k mark. The €15k bike, absolute max €1500-€2000. if it's a major brand rather than low volume exotica.
Exactly! This is my point which you have described in much better way.

Even a €2.5k Alu/105 bike the parts cost is probably less than 500€. Price inflation is out of control.
if that markup was real you would have way more companies entering the bike industry market. The bike industry market, the high end particularly, it's a very, tiny small market with zero economies of scale. This is basically the opposite of the car industry.
Do you work in the bike industry? Because you sound like you do. This a total myth, and one which they want everyone to believe.

Costs to make most bike parts in high volume are really (REALLY) low, and there's not a big difference in cost between low, mid and high end parts, despite the gigantic differences in prices. That VeloBuild frameset for €500 delivered probably costs VeloBuild about €100 less than an S-Works SL7 does to Specialized.

The mid to high end bike market absolutely dwarfs the motorbike industry.

There are several reasons you don't see big new entrants. The price rise has been astronomic, and extremely fast. The expansion of the market has also been very large and very quick. I.E. It hasn't happened YET. But the biggest reason, it's all marketing and brand, with well entrenched companies that all have cushy relationships with the cycling media - or what passes for it. It's never been about features or performance, or very little, for 90% of people buying the top stuff.

That's why you're seeing car and motorbike companies going into e-bikes (even though profit margins are smaller - though still vast) rather than bikes. They're primarily seen as a mode of transport, where people will seek value, performance, and convenience, so they can compete with or out-compete bike brands. Whereas the bike industry is all marketing mumbo-jumbo and snake oil, brand worship and people trying to convince you that a $500 (max) frameset is worth $6-7k (or more), and that $4000 pair of wheels which cost $300 to make are totally worth it.
Last edited by RDY on Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lina
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

pmprego wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:59 am
maquisard wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:33 am
RDY wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:29 am
The Dacia probably has production costs around the €8-9k mark. The €15k bike, absolute max €1500-€2000. if it's a major brand rather than low volume exotica.
Exactly! This is my point which you have described in much better way.

Even a €2.5k Alu/105 bike the parts cost is probably less than 500€. Price inflation is out of control.
if that markup was real you would have way more companies entering the bike industry market. The bike industry market, the high end particularly, it's a very, tiny small market with zero economies of scale. This is basically the opposite of the car industry.

But i really don't want to enter the price discussion. Just wanted to say that the markups you guys are implying is not true in any industry in the world.
So like all those rebadged open mold brands. Oh wait, those are everywhere. You just choose to ignore them because they're not one of the "old and prestigious" brands.

by Weenie


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cberg
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:30 am

by cberg

F74C269E-75DE-47B2-BF12-A7A8C84957F9.jpeg
Bolide TT disc?

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

The frameshape still looks super yesterday.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

OlieSimpson
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat May 01, 2021 7:20 pm

by OlieSimpson

For me it's not so much the bike industry that is f*cked in terms of pricing, more the road segment of it specifically.

I come from an MTB background and have recently got in to road riding and to be honest, the price of a road bike is shocking for what you actually get. Compare it to a downhill bike where the frame is actually designed to do something rather than just look fast, whilst also adding in adjustability in terms of geo (flip chips, variable wheel sizes 27.5"/29", head angle altering headsets etc.) then add the forks, rear shock, chain guard etc. and you get a significant bang for your buck (example here: https://www.bikester.nl/mondraker-summu ... gLjpfD_BwE).

The materials are largely the same with carbon frames and wheelsets, titanium parts etc., and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 6294
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

OlieSimpson wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:30 pm
For me it's not so much the bike industry that is f*cked in terms of pricing, more the road segment of it specifically.

I come from an MTB background and have recently got in to road riding and to be honest, the price of a road bike is shocking for what you actually get. Compare it to a downhill bike where the frame is actually designed to do something rather than just look fast, whilst also adding in adjustability in terms of geo (flip chips, variable wheel sizes 27.5"/29", head angle altering headsets etc.) then add the forks, rear shock, chain guard etc. and you get a significant bang for your buck (example here: https://www.bikester.nl/mondraker-summu ... gLjpfD_BwE).

The materials are largely the same with carbon frames and wheelsets, titanium parts etc., and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!

Totally agree with you!
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

fizzaz
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:02 pm

by fizzaz

OlieSimpson wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:30 pm
and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!
Ehh not quite. You can tune suspension for handling on a mtb. You don't have the luxury with a road frame. The layups in a carbon road frame are more than likely always more complicated.

maquisard
Posts: 3792
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

fizzaz wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:33 pm
The layups in a carbon road frame are more than likely always more complicated.
Not true. The lay-ups in a carbon fibre MTB frame are perhaps more complex and are subject to more complicated forces due to the suspension components. A composite MTB is simply a much more difficult design and product than a road bike will ever be.

Road bikes are massively over priced.

RDY
Posts: 2401
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

fizzaz wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:33 pm
OlieSimpson wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:30 pm
and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!
Ehh not quite. You can tune suspension for handling on a mtb. You don't have the luxury with a road frame. The layups in a carbon road frame are more than likely always more complicated.
Layups are simple in both. Road more so.

otnemem
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:55 am

by otnemem

cberg wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:46 pm
F74C269E-75DE-47B2-BF12-A7A8C84957F9.jpeg

Bolide TT disc?
Did he use it in the euros?

carbocation
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:40 pm

by carbocation

OlieSimpson wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:30 pm
For me it's not so much the bike industry that is f*cked in terms of pricing, more the road segment of it specifically.

I come from an MTB background and have recently got in to road riding and to be honest, the price of a road bike is shocking for what you actually get. Compare it to a downhill bike where the frame is actually designed to do something rather than just look fast, whilst also adding in adjustability in terms of geo (flip chips, variable wheel sizes 27.5"/29", head angle altering headsets etc.) then add the forks, rear shock, chain guard etc. and you get a significant bang for your buck (example here: https://www.bikester.nl/mondraker-summu ... gLjpfD_BwE).

The materials are largely the same with carbon frames and wheelsets, titanium parts etc., and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!
How much money do you think MTB frame makers spend on wind tunnel and CFD time?

RDY
Posts: 2401
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

carbocation wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:30 am
OlieSimpson wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:30 pm
For me it's not so much the bike industry that is f*cked in terms of pricing, more the road segment of it specifically.

I come from an MTB background and have recently got in to road riding and to be honest, the price of a road bike is shocking for what you actually get. Compare it to a downhill bike where the frame is actually designed to do something rather than just look fast, whilst also adding in adjustability in terms of geo (flip chips, variable wheel sizes 27.5"/29", head angle altering headsets etc.) then add the forks, rear shock, chain guard etc. and you get a significant bang for your buck (example here: https://www.bikester.nl/mondraker-summu ... gLjpfD_BwE).

The materials are largely the same with carbon frames and wheelsets, titanium parts etc., and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!
How much money do you think MTB frame makers spend on wind tunnel and CFD time?
Not much, but the cost of suspension design is a lot more costly than that, especially given the number of protos built usually, and what exactly is "CFD time"? :D

cberg
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:30 am

by cberg

otnemem wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:14 am
cberg wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:46 pm
F74C269E-75DE-47B2-BF12-A7A8C84957F9.jpeg

Bolide TT disc?
Did he use it in the euros?
Nope, and it doesnt look like he has been training on it pre WC either when looking at his socials

Aikon
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:27 pm

by Aikon

RDY wrote:
carbocation wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:30 am
OlieSimpson wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:30 pm
For me it's not so much the bike industry that is f*cked in terms of pricing, more the road segment of it specifically.

I come from an MTB background and have recently got in to road riding and to be honest, the price of a road bike is shocking for what you actually get. Compare it to a downhill bike where the frame is actually designed to do something rather than just look fast, whilst also adding in adjustability in terms of geo (flip chips, variable wheel sizes 27.5"/29", head angle altering headsets etc.) then add the forks, rear shock, chain guard etc. and you get a significant bang for your buck (example here: https://www.bikester.nl/mondraker-summu ... gLjpfD_BwE).

The materials are largely the same with carbon frames and wheelsets, titanium parts etc., and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!
How much money do you think MTB frame makers spend on wind tunnel and CFD time?
Not much, but the cost of suspension design is a lot more costly than that, especially given the number of protos built usually, and what exactly is "CFD time"? :D
Computational Fluid Dynamics, something you can do in-house, or outsource if you don’t have enough processing power

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



RDY
Posts: 2401
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

Aikon wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:13 am
RDY wrote:
carbocation wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:30 am
OlieSimpson wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:30 pm
For me it's not so much the bike industry that is f*cked in terms of pricing, more the road segment of it specifically.

I come from an MTB background and have recently got in to road riding and to be honest, the price of a road bike is shocking for what you actually get. Compare it to a downhill bike where the frame is actually designed to do something rather than just look fast, whilst also adding in adjustability in terms of geo (flip chips, variable wheel sizes 27.5"/29", head angle altering headsets etc.) then add the forks, rear shock, chain guard etc. and you get a significant bang for your buck (example here: https://www.bikester.nl/mondraker-summu ... gLjpfD_BwE).

The materials are largely the same with carbon frames and wheelsets, titanium parts etc., and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!
How much money do you think MTB frame makers spend on wind tunnel and CFD time?
Not much, but the cost of suspension design is a lot more costly than that, especially given the number of protos built usually, and what exactly is "CFD time"? :D
Computational Fluid Dynamics, something you can do in-house, or outsource if you don’t have enough processing power
I know what CFD is ...

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