2022 New Frame Rumours
Moderator: robbosmans
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Time in the Wind tunnel also really isnt that expensive. Especially when you consider, that most manufactures only take their finished bike there, to shoot some marketing material....carbocation wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:30 amHow much money do you think MTB frame makers spend on wind tunnel and CFD time?OlieSimpson wrote: ↑Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:30 pmFor me it's not so much the bike industry that is f*cked in terms of pricing, more the road segment of it specifically.
I come from an MTB background and have recently got in to road riding and to be honest, the price of a road bike is shocking for what you actually get. Compare it to a downhill bike where the frame is actually designed to do something rather than just look fast, whilst also adding in adjustability in terms of geo (flip chips, variable wheel sizes 27.5"/29", head angle altering headsets etc.) then add the forks, rear shock, chain guard etc. and you get a significant bang for your buck (example here: https://www.bikester.nl/mondraker-summu ... gLjpfD_BwE).
The materials are largely the same with carbon frames and wheelsets, titanium parts etc., and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!
Probably? Factor in retailer margin, distributor margin, design, marketing, warranty support and global shipping, that €500 wouldn't leave that much margin for the bike brand.
For instance, a container from china used to cost $4k half a year ago is now costing $15k for the same capacity but taking three time as long to actually arrive to the final destination.Karvalo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:32 pmProbably? Factor in retailer margin, distributor margin, design, marketing, warranty support and global shipping, that €500 wouldn't leave that much margin for the bike brand.
Just an example. Obvisouly brands have to pass through these costs onto the final price. And it's not only bike or bike parts. Even home building materials are costing way higher than a year ago.
I guess it's time to accept things as they are. Either one is willing or has the capacity to pay or it doesn't and moves on.
Yeah but motorbikes with a BoM 7-8x that of 'super bikes', hugely higher shipping, R&D, support and marketing cost less - often a lot less ... wake up. Beyond cheap basic transport, bikes and a lot of bike parts are priced as rarified luxury goods.Karvalo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:32 pmProbably? Factor in retailer margin, distributor margin, design, marketing, warranty support and global shipping, that €500 wouldn't leave that much margin for the bike brand.
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If marketing BS is to be believed (I know, I know) and companies are using FEA or some algorithmic solution to come up with optimal frame designs, then putting each one of those frame designs through CFD processing, that would translate to a lot of processing power / time, which isn't cheap if you want to do it in a reasonable amount of time at a decent resolution.RDY wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:59 pmI know what CFD is ...Aikon wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:13 amComputational Fluid Dynamics, something you can do in-house, or outsource if you don’t have enough processing powerRDY wrote:Not much, but the cost of suspension design is a lot more costly than that, especially given the number of protos built usually, and what exactly is "CFD time"?carbocation wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:30 am
How much money do you think MTB frame makers spend on wind tunnel and CFD time?
I do agree with whomever pointed out in the thread that most companies probably don't spend a lot of time on wind tunnel testing until picture day. But, for at least two companies (Spec and Ridley IIRC), it's worth it enough that they built their own wind tunnels. The #1 thing I know about wind tunnels is that they're fairly expensive.
- wheelsONfire
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Yes, i agree. We could all name a few companies which have invested big (some in short time) and see that it's big money in this.RDY wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:23 pmYeah but motorbikes with a BoM 7-8x that of 'super bikes', hugely higher shipping, R&D, support and marketing cost less - often a lot less ... wake up. Beyond cheap basic transport, bikes and a lot of bike parts are priced as rarified luxury goods.Karvalo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:32 pmProbably? Factor in retailer margin, distributor margin, design, marketing, warranty support and global shipping, that €500 wouldn't leave that much margin for the bike brand.
Pinarello are no big seller of bikes and still a huge amount of money around this company.
Bikes:
Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
It's just a basic law of supply vs demand, as long as there is demand for it they will raise the price however they see fit.
Our local Specialized distributor just raised prices 3x within the past 30 days for the SL7 Comp due to huge demands.
$5,600 to $5,750 to $6,000 -- all within the past 30 days. Still they run out of stock, unbelievable.
On the other hand, Hybrids & MTBs are piling up ready for purchase with a discount.
Our local Specialized distributor just raised prices 3x within the past 30 days for the SL7 Comp due to huge demands.
$5,600 to $5,750 to $6,000 -- all within the past 30 days. Still they run out of stock, unbelievable.
On the other hand, Hybrids & MTBs are piling up ready for purchase with a discount.
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Problem with Wind Tunnels is that the costs rack up really quickly. Going rate in the UK is about £300 an hour. Unfortunately if you are trying things like a bikes profile you can probably only try 3-4 angles per hour. I agree CFD time is much cheaper and the pricing on bikes is going crazy but unfortunately if people will pay it then brands will keep pushing itHansZuDemFranz wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:29 pmTime in the Wind tunnel also really isnt that expensive. Especially when you consider, that most manufactures only take their finished bike there, to shoot some marketing material....carbocation wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:30 amHow much money do you think MTB frame makers spend on wind tunnel and CFD time?OlieSimpson wrote: ↑Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:30 pmFor me it's not so much the bike industry that is f*cked in terms of pricing, more the road segment of it specifically.
I come from an MTB background and have recently got in to road riding and to be honest, the price of a road bike is shocking for what you actually get. Compare it to a downhill bike where the frame is actually designed to do something rather than just look fast, whilst also adding in adjustability in terms of geo (flip chips, variable wheel sizes 27.5"/29", head angle altering headsets etc.) then add the forks, rear shock, chain guard etc. and you get a significant bang for your buck (example here: https://www.bikester.nl/mondraker-summu ... gLjpfD_BwE).
The materials are largely the same with carbon frames and wheelsets, titanium parts etc., and I bet there is a lot more engineering going on with a DH frame, it just makes the road bike pricing look like a joke!
- wheelsONfire
- Posts: 6283
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
- Location: NorthEU
Talking bike prices, i wonder if most people does keep to the budget versions and when prices goes up, i guess even more goes for the medium priced bikes instead of premium!?
I hardly ever see anyone here (where i live) on a premium bike. Personally i wouldn't buy any of these new bikes as they're all too expensive.
To me it seems it's best to wait buying ex Shimano. In a year or two it's on sale anyway.
Sooner or later there will be sales on Cervelo, Trek, Spesh etc. As long as you don't actually need to buy a new bike these times, it's better to just stay off.
I hardly ever see anyone here (where i live) on a premium bike. Personally i wouldn't buy any of these new bikes as they're all too expensive.
To me it seems it's best to wait buying ex Shimano. In a year or two it's on sale anyway.
Sooner or later there will be sales on Cervelo, Trek, Spesh etc. As long as you don't actually need to buy a new bike these times, it's better to just stay off.
Bikes:
Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
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- Posts: 41
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:32 pm
+9cm isn’t that crazy. It can go higher. I have a +11cm armspan, and yes, it does make things tricky. It’s good that not all brands build to the same geometry, because people vary so much that that would mean many more people would struggle to get a good setup. My brother is a similar height with a -4 cm armspan and short legs, so could not possibly use the same kind of setup or approach that I do.pmprego wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:45 pmBut you are a real outlier. +9cm armspan is really something. It's hard to account for that without going custom as @wheelsonfire said.Konsi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:38 pmRock climbing is why I found out about my arm span
I meant that having a low stack can be corrected to some extent with spacers, a too high one would need a -20 or -25 degree stem, and most new bikes come with an integrated barstem, so brands would need to offer that (or stick to a lower stack) to make it work for people like me.
Two outliers thenandrewbn42 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:19 pm+9cm isn’t that crazy. It can go higher. I have a +11cm armspan, and yes, it does make things tricky. It’s good that not all brands build to the same geometry, because people vary so much that that would mean many more people would struggle to get a good setup. My brother is a similar height with a -4 cm armspan and short legs, so could not possibly use the same kind of setup or approach that I do.pmprego wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:45 pmBut you are a real outlier. +9cm armspan is really something. It's hard to account for that without going custom as @wheelsonfire said.Konsi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:38 pmRock climbing is why I found out about my arm span
I meant that having a low stack can be corrected to some extent with spacers, a too high one would need a -20 or -25 degree stem, and most new bikes come with an integrated barstem, so brands would need to offer that (or stick to a lower stack) to make it work for people like me.
- robbosmans
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