Sram Rival AXS

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

DaveS
Posts: 3509
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm

by DaveS

stevesbike wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:40 pm
DaveS wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:57 pm
My disc bikes weigh 8kg, with force axs, inexpensive 1660g fulcrum racing 3 wheels, heavy smp saddle, heavy wheels manufacturing thread together BB, ec-90 bars, fsa k-force post, and 300 grams of pedals, bottle cages and computer. Frames are 990g. Full price would be about $5300, but half price frames brought mine down to $4300. To get substantially lower weight, expensive frame, groupset or wheels are needed. Take your pick.

A full rival group would add 0.2kg.
Sort of makes the point of whether lower end electronic groups are worth it - my gravel bike weighs 7.2 kg with 35mm gravel tires and Red/Force mechanical.
When I switched from Campy chorus 12 to force axs electronic, changing only the FD, RD, shifters and cassette, my bike did not gain any weight. A rival crank, RD and FD would add about 140g. Your example is another apples to oranges comparison that exaggerates the weight gain.

stevesbike
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:33 pm

by stevesbike

DaveS wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:35 pm
stevesbike wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:40 pm
DaveS wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:57 pm
My disc bikes weigh 8kg, with force axs, inexpensive 1660g fulcrum racing 3 wheels, heavy smp saddle, heavy wheels manufacturing thread together BB, ec-90 bars, fsa k-force post, and 300 grams of pedals, bottle cages and computer. Frames are 990g. Full price would be about $5300, but half price frames brought mine down to $4300. To get substantially lower weight, expensive frame, groupset or wheels are needed. Take your pick.

A full rival group would add 0.2kg.
Sort of makes the point of whether lower end electronic groups are worth it - my gravel bike weighs 7.2 kg with 35mm gravel tires and Red/Force mechanical.
When I switched from Campy chorus 12 to force axs electronic, changing only the FD, RD, shifters and cassette, my bike did not gain any weight. A rival crank, RD and FD would add about 140g. Your example is another apples to oranges comparison that exaggerates the weight gain.
Comparing the weights of groupsets isn't apples to orangesl. My point is that SRAM groupsets have been getting increasingly more expensive, heavier, and more proprietary. Red AXS weighs more than Rival 22! To make up for this, frames have gotten even more expensive to keep the total weight down - although it is now almost unheard of to have even a protour team bike be at risk of coming in under the UCI weight limit. The result is a shift in price point of 'entry-level' to $5k. The Aethos that Huang reviewed on cyclingtips will weigh over 8kg with pedals and typical sizes (he rides a 52) - and the frame weighs 700 grams! My Scott Addict SL with Red (size 58) weighs 5.9kgs. Even if weight savings doesn't result in huge time savings on climbs, the feeling differences of riding a 6 vs 8 kg bike is huge in terms of acceleration, nimbleness (just look at the reviews of the S-works Aethos). The industry was on their way to sub 6 kg bikes with the introduction of Red, then decided even entry-level bikes should have electronic shifting and discs and now we have $5k 8 kg starter bikes.

by Weenie


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ichobi
Posts: 1350
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

We arent going back to the 6.5kg “mid range”road bike era. The industry has already decided whether we like it or not.

OnTheRivet
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

3 years ago I bought a Canyon Endurace SL (not the lighter SLX) with Ultegra Di2, shipped to my Door just under 4k. Sold the wheels w rotors, Crankset, tires, Springy Seatpost and a couple other parts. Bought some LB wheels with I9 hubs, Ritchey Seatpost and stem, Dura Ace Stages crank, Easton carbon bar. after all said and done, into it about $5700ish USD and it weighs 7.2kg, not bad for a disc bike. It all comes down to smart parts pick, finding deals and doing your own work. Also, FAR and AWAY the best riding road bike I've ever been on, zero incentive to change.

Feehliks
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:07 pm

by Feehliks

ichobi wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:27 am
We arent going back to the 6.5kg “mid range”road bike era. The industry has already decided whether we like it or not.
UCI decided by introducing the weight limit.
  • 2019 Specialized Tarmac SW SL6 Red AXS Zipp 303
    2019 Cervelo P3 II Red AXS 1x Zipp 808
    2017 Cannondale Slate Force CX1 stock
    2012 Specialized Tarmac SL2
    2011 Cervelo P3 - under conversion to single speed/fixie
    2009 Cannondale CAAD9 Ultegra

petromyzon
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

There were plenty of 6.5kg bikes that didn't get the industry plaudits that the Aethos has - I agree, psychologically if not practically a light bike is nice to ride - but being light is not the whole story for ride quality.

Force and Red mechanical are nice enough and were very light for the money (I still ride most of the bits from my set) but they aren't THAT nice. They didn't seem to be as popular vs. Shimano and Campy mechanical when they were the current latest thing. Now some heavy, expensive Rival bits have come out and people are getting all upset. Let's see what Shimano and Campy do for mechanical groupos for the next generation before we declare the death of the lightweight, cost effective race bike. Certainly I think there is a niche for rim-brake, cable Record or similar for many years. However while I think of Campy as classic gear for the aficionado with a strong retro following, a lot of rumours coming out of Vicenza seem to suggest that they are all in with the disc/tubeless/wireless/13 speed future hellscape.

I don't think that heavy, expensive wireless bits have forced the weight down and price up of other bits; the industry has done all of that independently. Some recent wheel releases make me think that the theoretical benefits of disc brakes in terms of rim weight are finally coming home to roost, which is good.

Ypuh
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:20 pm
Location: The Netherlands

by Ypuh

petromyzon wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:35 am
I don't think that heavy, expensive wireless bits have forced the weight down and price up of other bits; the industry has done all of that independently. Some recent wheel releases make me think that the theoretical benefits of disc brakes in terms of rim weight are finally coming home to roost, which is good.
No, they already did when moving from 11 > 12s.

I was quite happy to see they announced Force AXS, but in reality Red AXS was introduced at a new extreme price level (compared to Red22 Etap) and Force AXS took the spot of the previous generation Red22 Etap. It was much heavier and introduced at least 5 new proprietary parts (chain, chainrings, cassette, body, bb) and zero backwards compatibility.

So yeah, your right. Rival didn't up the prices of Force and Red because they were already increased last year.
Cervelo S3 - 7.29kg

maquisard
Posts: 2980
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

SRAM seems to be going after the higher end wireless groupset market and abandoning lower end. Rival AXS will be found on more OEM bike builds I would guess, but it will never reach Shimano levels.

I would like to see them turn Apex 1 HRD into a RIval/Force level mechanical only groupset. Just a small refinement and weight reduction to what they have now. I have Apex 1 on a gravel bike and it works well, if a small amount unrefined.

DaveS
Posts: 3509
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm

by DaveS

The price for force components was reduced last year, not increased. I started using force axs on my Campy 12 bikes, last July after finding 4 piece groups for $1000.

The term proprietary is being too often and incorrectly. The XDR freehub body is not proprietary and neither are the chains, cassettes or chain rings. The compatibility issue is also greatly exaggerated. I've used the axs chain with Campy 12 and shimano grx 11 speed cranks with no problem. I use the grx cranks to get more range. The axs FD will shift a 48/32, 48/31 or 46/30 flawlessly. The axs chain also works great with Campy 12 cassettes. The sprocket spacing on Campy and SRAM 12 speed cassettes is nearly identical.

Any manufacturer is free to duplicate the XDR freehub body and many do. I use Campy/Fulcrum wheels with XDR freehub and cassettes on two bikes.
Last edited by DaveS on Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JMeinholdt
Posts: 670
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Location: Topeka, KS

by JMeinholdt

DaveS wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:30 am
The price for force components was reduced last year, not increased. I started using force axs on my Campy 12 bikes, last July after finding 4 piece groups for $1000.
I bought my Force AXS 4 piece mechanical brake group for ~$950 USD around the same timeframe. I am curious to see pricing trends for all ranges of AXS now with the introduction of Rival AXS.
Wilier Cento10AIR Rim Brake - SRAM Force AXS
3T Exploro 105 - Gravel/Commuter/Trainer

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talltales
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:43 pm

by talltales

What is the real roller diameter of a AXS road chain?

Supposedly its different from a standard 10 or 11s chain, but what is it. Is it significant enough to cause issues/wear or is it just marketing?

JMeinholdt
Posts: 670
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Location: Topeka, KS

by JMeinholdt

talltales wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:29 pm
What is the real roller diameter of a AXS road chain?

Supposedly its different from a standard 10 or 11s chain, but what is it. Is it significant enough to cause issues/wear or is it just marketing?
I tried to measure but the area is too tight to fit my calipers. I've been using my AXS bike on my trainer with an 11 speed cassette for probably 1500-2000 trainer miles. I haven't seen any abnormal wear. Obviously it doesn't shift the best, but could be much worse. I took a video to demonstrate it. Cog spacing is quite a bit different.

https://youtu.be/DBQFZ8f4Hgo
Wilier Cento10AIR Rim Brake - SRAM Force AXS
3T Exploro 105 - Gravel/Commuter/Trainer

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talltales
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:43 pm

by talltales

Easier to measure a roller out of the chain, from the piece you take off, to seize the chain. I have found that the often mentioned roller diameter of 5/16" (~7.9mm) or sometimes 7.75mm simply isnt true for a 10 speed derailleur chain. Its more like 7.65mm measured with a shop quality digital vernier. At least for Shimano and KMC. That why im curious about the actual roller diameter of the axs road chains.

(electronic derailleurs should have "wheel memory" and the option to change between 11 and 12s or even 10s :-)

DaveS
Posts: 3509
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm

by DaveS

The axs rollers follows the ANSI specification for a #40 chain with a maximum diameter of 5/16 inch or 0.3125 inch. Standard chains are #41 with 0.306 maximum diameter. Most rollers are about .001 inch less than maximum. SRAM has never mentioned this in any literature I've read. The flat top is necessary to allow thinner outer plates. The increased height creates more cross sectional area, so strength isn't lost.

FWIW, an Ekar chain is even narrower - too narrow to fit on a shimano grx chainring. It might fit over a Campy 12 chainring, but I no longer have one to try. The inner plates are only about 0.073 inch apart.
Last edited by DaveS on Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

talltales
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:43 pm

by talltales

#40. Thanks, but that doesn't answer the question. What is the real, measured diameter? Standard chains are #41, except the only chains with that big rollers are one speed chains, according to my vernier at least?

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