Rumor about Dogma F14?

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bikewithnoname
Posts: 1736
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Location: Paris

by bikewithnoname

I'm wondering if there will be any change from EUR7k for this frameset...
"We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities." Oscar Wilde

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C36
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by C36

hannawald wrote: I just wonder if they want to use rim brake bike in 2 years as well (F14 will be here for some time)..they will be probably the only ones in world tour..it is possible to get Colnago V3RS in disc version (one of few other used rim brake bikes in the peloton) near 6.8 kgs so Pinarello should try..
No idea, only know for the f10-12. Movistar pushed back discs for similar reasons until sponsor twisted their arms. Despite and healthy budget, they couldn’t say no.


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Supersix evo2HM : 5.71Kg

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BigBoyND
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by BigBoyND

otnemem wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:49 am
Just yesterday I saw a black F12 Xlight Disc with Lightweights, Campag Super Record. 8.01Kg.

How do you get that down 1.2Kg "without problems"? Some fanboys here be tripping.
How could that be possible... see my post above. I have a rim brake Prince (which is heavier than a disk brake non-X Dogma) with 1760g wheels in 60cm size at 7.4kg including mounts and pedals. No exotic WW parts on it anywhere.

Disc frame adds tens of grams and the disc groupset about 150g. Unless that person is using a concrete brick as a saddle and some steel plumbing for handlebars, I don't see how 8kg is possible on an X-Light with Lightweights. Even if they're Fernweg 85 mm disc which weigh 1765 g (not all Lightweights are lightweight)

Btw just ignore the above and think about this for a moment. See if it makes any sense to you at all:
A lightweight aero-ish frame like SL7 might be 850g + 350g fork + 150g seatpost with minimal paint. No problem, to get it to 6.8kg without Lightweights, right? A "heavy" race bike with thick coats will maybe be 1150g + 450g fork + 250g seatpost. Add that up and you'll find that the total difference 500g. Top-spec race frames will never vary by 1.2kg with the same components across manufacturers. There's zero chance a painted Dogma would be 1550g frame + 650g fork + 350g seatpost (to get what should be a 6.8kg build on an SL7 to 8kg as you say)

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

otnemem wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:49 am
ome rodriguez wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 5:56 am
Maybe 6,8 with lightweights
Just yesterday I saw a black F12 Xlight Disc with Lightweights, Campag Super Record. 8.01Kg.

How do you get that down 1.2Kg "without problems"? Some fanboys here be tripping.
have you looked at the specs on lightweights' disc wheels.. I mean I love my obermayer tubs @ 940g, but if I was looking to drop grams on a disc brake bike, lightweights would not be my choice, but I'd get em for da bling factor.
Last edited by spdntrxi on Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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sychen
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by sychen

Whatever the weight is.. Doesn't seem to be holding back Carapaz at TdS.

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1sanglier
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:14 pm

by 1sanglier

First victory of "F14" yesterday. :D

topt
Posts: 60
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Location: Slovenija

by topt

hannawald wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:20 pm
C36 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:36 pm
otnemem wrote:
ome rodriguez wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 5:56 am
Maybe 6,8 with lightweights
Just yesterday I saw a black F12 Xlight Disc with Lightweights, Campag Super Record. 8.01Kg.

How do you get that down 1.2Kg "without problems"? Some fanboys here be tripping.
Some people jump on the last message without looking at the history of posts… I don’t recall anyone saying they could drop a disc bike to 6.8.
- people mentioned the use of LW (on their rim brake bikes) to reach 6.8. And they don’t need LW to reach 6.8 on their rim bike.
- The debate on f12-14 disc weight may be relevant for us, not relevant for Ineos since its was a conscious decision, from the start, to use rim brakes after performance test they conducted. In short discs were not giving any advantage FOR THEM, and measured rim bike more performant (at least on f10 and 12 that I know of), then pointless FOR THEM looking the “if we were using a disc F12 we would need…”


- - - - - - - - -
Supersix evo2HM : 5.71Kg
I just wonder if they want to use rim brake bike in 2 years as well (F14 will be here for some time)..they will be probably the only ones in world tour..it is possible to get Colnago V3RS in disc version (one of few other used rim brake bikes in the peloton) near 6.8 kgs so Pinarello should try..
add Bianchi to that and why wouldnt they....

otnemem
Posts: 398
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by otnemem

BigBoyND wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:35 am
otnemem wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:49 am
Just yesterday I saw a black F12 Xlight Disc with Lightweights, Campag Super Record. 8.01Kg.

How do you get that down 1.2Kg "without problems"? Some fanboys here be tripping.
How could that be possible...
A scale said so. Your posts don't change physics.
Show me a F12 Xlight Disc weighing less. I'll wait.

otnemem
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:55 am

by otnemem

C36 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:36 pm
otnemem wrote:
ome rodriguez wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 5:56 am
Maybe 6,8 with lightweights
Just yesterday I saw a black F12 Xlight Disc with Lightweights, Campag Super Record. 8.01Kg.

How do you get that down 1.2Kg "without problems"? Some fanboys here be tripping.
Some people jump on the last message without looking at the history of posts… I don’t recall anyone saying they could drop a disc bike to 6.8.
- people mentioned the use of LW (on their rim brake bikes) to reach 6.8. And they don’t need LW to reach 6.8 on their rim bike.
- The debate on f12-14 disc weight may be relevant for us, not relevant for Ineos since its was a conscious decision, from the start, to use rim brakes after performance test they conducted.
Yes, yes, we know, they test. Science, yeah! Shoes that fit. Rounder wheels. Custom mattresses and pillows.
Completely irrelevant that the bike maker that sponsors them isn't able to provide them with a competitive DB bike. No sir-e.

:noidea:

hannawald
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Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

topt wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:05 pm
hannawald wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:20 pm
C36 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:36 pm
otnemem wrote: Just yesterday I saw a black F12 Xlight Disc with Lightweights, Campag Super Record. 8.01Kg.

How do you get that down 1.2Kg "without problems"? Some fanboys here be tripping.
Some people jump on the last message without looking at the history of posts… I don’t recall anyone saying they could drop a disc bike to 6.8.
- people mentioned the use of LW (on their rim brake bikes) to reach 6.8. And they don’t need LW to reach 6.8 on their rim bike.
- The debate on f12-14 disc weight may be relevant for us, not relevant for Ineos since its was a conscious decision, from the start, to use rim brakes after performance test they conducted. In short discs were not giving any advantage FOR THEM, and measured rim bike more performant (at least on f10 and 12 that I know of), then pointless FOR THEM looking the “if we were using a disc F12 we would need…”


- - - - - - - - -
Supersix evo2HM : 5.71Kg
I just wonder if they want to use rim brake bike in 2 years as well (F14 will be here for some time)..they will be probably the only ones in world tour..it is possible to get Colnago V3RS in disc version (one of few other used rim brake bikes in the peloton) near 6.8 kgs so Pinarello should try..
add Bianchi to that and why wouldnt they....
Bianchi already on disc with the change from Lotto Jumbo Visma to Bike Exchange. They use Oltre Disc and Specialissima Disc. So it is only Colnago and Pinarello now on rim brakes but Colnago has the hw if they need to fully switch to disc brakes (they use disc sometimes). For Pinarello it would a problem right now to have competitive disc brake bike (too heavy).

BigBoyND
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 1:51 am
Location: Berlin, DE

by BigBoyND

otnemem wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:53 pm
BigBoyND wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:35 am
otnemem wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:49 am
Just yesterday I saw a black F12 Xlight Disc with Lightweights, Campag Super Record. 8.01Kg.

How do you get that down 1.2Kg "without problems"? Some fanboys here be tripping.
How could that be possible...
A scale said so. Your posts don't change physics.
Show me a F12 Xlight Disc weighing less. I'll wait.
Lmao how convenient. You didn't show us the 8kg build but you're asking to show you.

What I wrote is about physics. What you wrote ignores all the components that make up 80% of a bike's weight. 8kg makes zero sense if you take a moment to think about the numbers I gave as examples unless the bike has very heavy components. But sure, I'll try to simplify it if addition is too complicated. These are in order that I found them, not selectively skipping.

Wrench science FB post from November '20 for Todd N:
Size 56 F12 disk, Red AXS, Enve clincher, and heavy handlebar setup is 7.5kg

Wrench science FB post from November '19 for Roberto P:
Size 53 F12 disk, Red AXS, Zipp clinchers is 7.6kg

Rennrad und triathlon.de FB post from Feb '20:
F12 disk, Red eTap, deep BikeBeat clinchers is 7.4kg

Just found the one you're referring to. It has the heavy British championship paintwork and the "Lightweights" are 1700g 63mm Fernwegs :lol:

Looks like you picked the single most heavy Dogma you could find. No other I could find is that heavy. Most of the builds posted by Wrench Science are around 7.5kg with AXS and other heavy parts.

Here's one that has actual light Lightweights, as you tried to imply: their Apr 4 post. It has Lightweight Wegweiser wheels and Dura Ace. Weighs 7.0kg. And it's not even an X-Light frame.

Does this count as showing you? I hope it was worth the "wait" to see one weighing less than 8kg. Lol

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C36
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by C36

otnemem wrote: Yes, yes, we know, they test. Science, yeah! Shoes that fit. Rounder wheels. Custom mattresses and pillows.
Completely irrelevant that the bike maker that sponsors them isn't able to provide them with a competitive DB bike. No sir-e.

:noidea:
You really make a good effort to not understand. It would be a problem if they wanted to use a disc brakes and had nothing competitive. Since they decided not to use discs brakes with the F10 and decide to stick to this choice during f12 developement, you see a problem where there is no. Why bother Pinarello with a product you don’t want?

You really think Pinarello is unable to deliver what they want? Come on, they made an « all-day » aero frame when all the other beads had to provide an aero and a climbing frame, Sky wanted a road suspension frame and got it and that’s really an ultra ultra niche product! they don’t want disc, so they f… don’t care what Pinarello disc frame weight. If they had seen any benefit the story would have been totally different.
not sure how I we can make it clearer, you see a problem where there is no.

Now it would be nice, for the normal riders that sees benefits in discs, to have a lighter option on top of what is for years one of the top most aero frames despite being a polyvalent frame.

- - - - - - - - -
Supersix evo2HM : 5.71Kg
Last edited by C36 on Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:04 am, edited 7 times in total.

ome rodriguez
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by ome rodriguez

Don't worry Ineos will be riding discbrake bikes soon when the lose the Tdf this year.

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bikewithnoname
Posts: 1736
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Location: Paris

by bikewithnoname

Well they're 1 grand tour ahead of everyone else so far.
"We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities." Oscar Wilde

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