New bike: Red AXS or Dura ace di2?

[abonjour]

Does anyone have real world weights for DA di2 and Red AXS?

https://ccache.cc/blogs/newsroom/2020-r ... comparison gives me below with the note that "Note: Di2 weights do not include wiring/junction box/battery. The reason why is because there is a host of different wire length + junction options and weight will fluctuate with setup."
However, it doesn't say if it's actually weighed or just using supplied weights from manufacturers...

Electronic Shift (Disc) Shifters Rear D. Front D. Cranks Cass. Chain Brakes Total
Dura-Ace Di2 R9170 320 197 104 614 193 247 256 1931
Ultegra Di2 R8070 360 240 132 674 251 257 286 2200
Red eTap AXS HRD 467 299 167 561 211 255 282 2242

If AXS is 300g heavier, I find it strange that Trek says the difference between AXS and DA version of Emonda is 20g...

Did you find out about the real world difference between the two (w. all cables, hoses, rotors, batteries, etc.)? I'd seen anything between 200-300g thrown around, but no one seems to have confirmed it.

Sorry to dig up a several month old thread... can anyone answer the above? It is not just Trek that lists a smaller weight difference between their AXS and Dura Ace bikes... Canyon and Focus also give similar numbers on their websites (basically the difference between otherwise identical builds seems to be ~50-100g on average).

Just bought an S5 frameset and trying to decide between the two groupsets. I'd go Dura Ace if it wasnt so difficult to get hold of all the bits at a sensible price. I also don't really want to wait 6 or 12 months for new stock or the new dura ace! So I can live with a slightly heavier groupset (the S5 is hardly a WW build) but if it's 300g it tips it over the edge for me, on top of the lack of compatability with my other bikes.

[JMeinholdt]

Does anyone have real world weights for DA di2 and Red AXS?

https://ccache.cc/blogs/newsroom/2020-r ... comparison gives me below with the note that "Note: Di2 weights do not include wiring/junction box/battery. The reason why is because there is a host of different wire length + junction options and weight will fluctuate with setup."
However, it doesn't say if it's actually weighed or just using supplied weights from manufacturers...

Electronic Shift (Disc) Shifters Rear D. Front D. Cranks Cass. Chain Brakes Total
Dura-Ace Di2 R9170 320 197 104 614 193 247 256 1931
Ultegra Di2 R8070 360 240 132 674 251 257 286 2200
Red eTap AXS HRD 467 299 167 561 211 255 282 2242

If AXS is 300g heavier, I find it strange that Trek says the difference between AXS and DA version of Emonda is 20g...

Did you find out about the real world difference between the two (w. all cables, hoses, rotors, batteries, etc.)? I'd seen anything between 200-300g thrown around, but no one seems to have confirmed it.

Sorry to dig up a several month old thread... can anyone answer the above? It is not just Trek that lists a smaller weight difference between their AXS and Dura Ace bikes... Canyon and Focus also give similar numbers on their websites (basically the difference between otherwise identical builds seems to be ~50-100g on average).

Just bought an S5 frameset and trying to decide between the two groupsets. I'd go Dura Ace if it wasnt so difficult to get hold of all the bits at a sensible price. I also don't really want to wait 6 or 12 months for new stock or the new dura ace! So I can live with a slightly heavier groupset (the S5 is hardly a WW build) but if it's 300g it tips it over the edge for me, on top of the lack of compatability with my other bikes.

I can tell just by looking that the derailleur weights listed for AXS include the batteries (24g each). On my previous Di2 set up, the battery, cables, and junctions weighed 117g.

So there's a chunk not accounted for in the above list.

[abonjour]

Thanks yes i was aware of that missing weight but even adding that on it seems like theres still ~150g discrepancy between what bike companies are giving and the individual groupset weights. Really hard to workout what else is missing or different!

[pmprego]

People are hating on Red AXS, as if it were a mighty impairment on performance compared to Dura Ace. And most haven't even tried it. I have Red AXS on all my bikes and have ridden it for 20k km. Didn't really have many notable issues. Changing gears is absolutely fast enough for me, but that's just me.
My complains are limited choice of Gearing (nothing beyond 50/37, only 52T 1x when going stock SRAM) and expensive components.
The 10T cog being "slow" isn't really an issue, because I only use it for super fast descents. Don't really need a 50/10 too often (which at 90 cadence is just shy of 40mph)...

I don't like the 10t solution but I could easily live with it. What kills it for me is the FD. I have sram etap and it just drives me nuts. I see a dedicated thread just for people having the same issue with axs. At the axs price point this is just unacceptable.

Better for sram to buy the classified rear hub gearing mechanism and kill its fd.

[synchronicity]

I wouldn't worry about the "10 sprocket and efficacy losses".

You might not like the styling of the new Dura Ace. Shimano always manages to sculpt their DuraAce + XTR rear derailleurs in new ways... shapes that aren't always functional... And what are you going to do? Wait a year before getting a bike?

It sounds to me like you want to get the AXS group.
(I haven't tried it and I ride campy by the way. )

[bruno2000]

Quick response and maybe my point has allready been brought up but I would go with the AXS only becaure it's 12v. Or wait with building the bike until next summer-autum and get the Dura-Ace 12v.

[Spinnekop]

So I have ridden the AXS Red now for a year. (It's been 18 years since I last tried Shimano)
Last week I threw everything off and busy building it with Di2. Why not Campy?.......because Campy is stupidly expensive compared to Di2. Locally 30% more expensive.

So points that made me spend all this money to switch over to Di2 11sp.
1. Proprietary spares. My LBS informed me the new 2021 pricing for a AXS Red chain will be $130. Cassette is crazy expensive although you don't replace it a lot during product life span. Chainrings for me was a HUGE issue as I wanted to use the P2M powermeter that I already had. Quarq just gave me heaps of crap (Yes, I tried the Quarq with the integrated chainrings and the zero offset figure just kept creeping up and SRAM could not give an answer to it)
2. Of the 4 people in my club that rides AXS, me included, all of them had issues with the rear derailleur dying at some stage. All replaced by SRAM but we were off the bike for a couple of weeks while waiting for replacement.
3. I just could not take the front chain drops anymore. Hours and hours of trying to fine tune the shifting. I just cannot anymore....this was the deciding factor.
4. The levers are rattling and the hoods look like 5 years old after only 1 year.
5. Personally (nitpicking here) I like the smaller shape of the hoods of Shimano

On the up side for AXS:
1. The 10s ring really, REALLY is not an issue. Seriously. No issue. Used it loads of time but really you don't pedal that much in that gear at that speed in order to "feel" any efficiency loss.....
2. Once I converted to the new calipers(2-piece), the braking was good. I could not falter the brakes except (nitpicking again) for the fact that the one lever had more pull than the other which was strange and annoying.
3. Backup service in my country was very good and availability was always good.
4. The "slow" shifting.......really not an issue. I could not pick it up as a problem. Each shift was crisp and perfect. Except front shifts. The front will only shift without a chain drop if you say 3 prayers and cross all your fingers and toes with a 4 leaf clover in your pocket tied to a horse shoe. It was like a mini party each time the front shift was successful.

Long post but that was my experience.

[pmprego]

(...)
3. I just could not take the front chain drops anymore. Hours and hours of trying to fine tune the shifting. I just cannot anymore....this was the deciding factor.
(...)
Long post but that was my experience.

Impressive how is SRAM still having this issue. Really, just buy the classified thing and solve the problem once and for all.

[splzd]

I've ridden my Force AXS for 20.000Km now so I like to think that I have quite some experience to talk about.
I'm on my 4th chain now, the other ones lasted for 6.000Km on average. I switched to a Red cassette after the 2nd chain, mainly because the Force cassette was noisy even with the stealth rings installed. That's not a problem anymore.
Because it is wireless this groupset is easy to install - that's right. But at the same time it's fiddly, installing the FD needs patience and fine tuning and you have to check the limit screws once in a while to prevent chain drops (some thread lock might help, haven't tried that).
Having 4 batteries on the bike (5 including PM) is not a problem for me. I didn't have to replace the ones in the shifters until now and the ones in the deraillieurs last for about 2.000Km for each charge. Also: the LEDs and the app give you a heads-up when the batteries are getting empty, I never ran out of power.
Since I'm on a force chainset with a separate Quark PM the stupid one-piece-design of the Red isn't bothering me.

I don't get the hate for SRAM. Interesting to see that it's a thing of the right installation when Shimano cables are rattling in the frame but a matter of bad design of SRAM, when chaindrops occur. As I said AXS is fiddly to install and some things have to be done slightly differently than known from other groupsets, but when you stick to the manual it's easy to get right.

[pmprego]

As I said AXS is fiddly to install and some things have to be done slightly differently than known from other groupsets, but when you stick to the manual it's easy to get right.

I've been on 3 different bike shops. All shrouded their shoulders and told me "you know, it's SRAM". So, they can all be bad mechanics. I don't know. But if it goes through 3 different shops and many more if you read the complaints then it's not a system to rely on. I know I won't be making the jump for AXS. I prefer to wait and see what Shimano releases. They are losing a lot of money but delaying the release. In my case, I'm not in a hurry but I won't go AXS that's for sure.

I do like they shifting logic (left up, right down), I even like the hoods. I simply hate their FD. If they find a way to lose it and still give me the range then SRAM is back in the game.

[DaveS]

I think that the chain drop issue must be at least partly a crank problem. I've set up my two force FDs six times in only a few months with no difficulty at all. I set up two Campy chorus 48/32 cranks, then switched to shimano grx cranks and reset both FDs. Later, I bought two new disc frames and built them up with the grx cranks. Never had a touchy setup and no chain drops. The new 10-36 cassettes have never had a noise problem.

Does the Red FD have a flimsy aluminum or carbon cage? I've never even used a wedge with my force FDs.

I have seen the FD rotate off parallel to the big ring, as the clamp bolt is fully tightened. Rotate the crank arm beside the tail end of the cage and watch for any change in clearance, as the clamp bolt is fully tightened.

I always carry a spare battery. I keep my spare battery in rotation, using it to replace any battery that needs it.

[vinny]

i have sram force axs, the front chain ring did fall off, but to be honest it was cuz i was messing with the limit screws. i followed the manual and now its good.

the rear force cassette is kind of noisy, i was playing with the fd limit screws to try to reduce the noise.

so far i have 5,200 miles on it still the original chain etc.

my lbs has no issues adjusting it.

[FlatlandClimber]

People are hating on Red AXS, as if it were a mighty impairment on performance compared to Dura Ace. And most haven't even tried it. I have Red AXS on all my bikes and have ridden it for 20k km. Didn't really have many notable issues. Changing gears is absolutely fast enough for me, but that's just me.
My complains are limited choice of Gearing (nothing beyond 50/37, only 52T 1x when going stock SRAM) and expensive components.
The 10T cog being "slow" isn't really an issue, because I only use it for super fast descents. Don't really need a 50/10 too often (which at 90 cadence is just shy of 40mph)...

I don't like the 10t solution but I could easily live with it. What kills it for me is the FD. I have sram etap and it just drives me nuts. I see a dedicated thread just for people having the same issue with axs. At the axs price point this is just unacceptable.

Better for sram to buy the classified rear hub gearing mechanism and kill its fd.

I just can't say I have had notable issues with the FD

[wheelsONfire]

I've had Etap on 3 Ax framesets and i have no issue!
If i would ditch Sram it's because i don't want the small chainring (35) and a 10 tooth cog.

[Hexsense]

I do like they shifting logic (left up, right down),

I also like that too. Therefore I set Di2 to shift just like that (but better, as there are more buttons to apply the same logic to front derailleur too).
Back buttons of each shifter (find the back edge of the button): Left side to move RD to the left. Right side to move RD to the right.
Front buttons of each shifter (find the button next to the brake lever): Left side to move FD to the left. Right side to move FD to the right.